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Re:New human-like species discovered by mootothemax on Thursday September 10, 2015 @07:51AM (#10197477)
The Guardian's coverage of this contains a fair amount of scepticism:

Christoph Zollikofer, an anthropologist at the University of Zurich, said that many of the bone characteristics used to claim the creature as a new species are seen in more primitive animals, and by definition cannot be used to define a new species.

“The few ‘unique’ features that potentially define the new species need further scrutiny, as they may represent individual variation, or variation at the population level,” he said.

Tim White, a paleoanthropologist at the University of California, Berkeley, goes further. “From what is presented here, they belong to a primitive Homo erectus, a species named in the 1800s.”

--

“Intentional disposal of rotting corpses by fellow pinheads makes a nice headline, but seems like a stretch to me,” said Jungers. Zollikofer agrees. “The ‘new species’ and ‘dump-the-dead’ claims are clearly for the media. None of them is substantiated by the data presented in the publications,” he said. Hawks is open to other explanations, but said that disposal made sense. “The evidence really tends to exclude the idea that they entered the chamber one at a time, alive, over some time, because we have infants, small children, and very old adults who would almost certainly not have managed to get into this chamber without being deposited there.”

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/sep/10/new-species-o...

Re:New human-like species discovered by at-fates-hands on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:18AM (#10198148)
As someone who spent a fair amount of time in academia, this is pretty common. As much as we all like to pat each other on the back, there are always contrarians who want to tamp down or be skeptical of another scientists conclusions.

Even after a few years, I learned there is always in-fighting when a major discovery like this is made. Regardless of where these bones should be classified, it's an incredible find no matter what - which is sometimes lost in the ensuing fray of dissenting opinions.

Re:New human-like species discovered by SEJeff on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:52AM (#10198386)
But isn't a healthy dose of scepticism simply good Science? Peer reviewed results are hard to be sceptical about. My favorite thing about science is that you often have strongly opposing sides both with super intelligent scientists. When everything has been fleshed out, the best and brightest tends to come to the top (not always, but as a generalism it is true).

Virtually everyone was sceptical of the guy claiming to have developed a form of propulsion powered more or less only by light, but then NASA tested the "EmDrive" and sure enough, it seems like the fundamental idea works. (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/evaluating-nasas-futu...)

Re:New human-like species discovered by beambot on Thursday September 10, 2015 @02:07PM (#10199561)
> Peer reviewed results are hard to be sceptical about.

With rampant forging of data and results, you better be skeptical of peer-reviewed results too. Reproducibility is an important, oft-overlooked, and under-appreciated part of science.

Re:New human-like species discovered by SEJeff on Thursday September 10, 2015 @04:40PM (#10200412)
And when I say peer review, perhaps I meant to say peer reproduced (which wasn't super obvious in the initial comment).
Re:New human-like species discovered by yawaramin on Thursday September 10, 2015 @09:07PM (#10201474)
Good point; after all, how can a review be serious if the reviewer(s) don't even try to reproduce the results?
Re:New human-like species discovered by kibibu on Thursday September 10, 2015 @09:26PM (#10201516)
A peer review can identify a very large class of problems with research without actually replicating the experiment.

For example, problems with methodology and sampling, overlooked prior research, bad analysis of results, straight-up non-sequiturs and conclusions drawn from insufficient data.

All of these mean peer review is valuable without reproducing results.

For an extreme example: if somebody publishes a "Cheese found on moon" paper, do you expect the reviewer to mount an expedition to the moon to check?

Re:New human-like species discovered by yawaramin on Thursday September 10, 2015 @09:45PM (#10201566)
Those are all excellent points, but even if you don't find any significant problems with the methodology or the math, or any of the other factors, that still doesn't make a complete review--not without replication.

For the 'Cheese found on moon' paper, I would expect the reviewer to clearly state that the results could not be replicated before mentioning anything else. Let readers draw informed conclusions based on a complete picture of the result, including whether or not it was a one-off.

Re:New human-like species discovered by gus_massa on Thursday September 10, 2015 @12:38PM (#10199069)
The supposed thrust of the EmDrive is very small. But the device has a lot of wires with current that can be equivalent to an electromagnet, and very hot parts that can create air currents, and ...

If you have not done few physics labs, it's easy to underestimate the measurement problems and the level of noise in experiments.

Most of the Physics community thinks that this is an experimental error. One symptom is that at lunch in a Physics department nobody talks about this. If this were real it would be a groundbreaking result because it breaks some of the most fundamental Physics laws.

Re:New human-like species discovered by SEJeff on Thursday September 10, 2015 @04:41PM (#10200424)
I don't think the scientists at NASA are bogus. They managed to calculate when a probe would reach pluto that was only off by a few seconds. There is still a lot of research that needs to be done on that, but there are those that say it isn't breaking the laws of physics.

We shall see I guess, but it has been replicated in 3 places now taht I'm aware of, two of which are serious science outfits.

Re:New human-like species discovered by gus_massa on Friday September 11, 2015 @07:17AM (#10203040)
The NASA is very big, they went to the Moon but they also published the infamous arsenic life paper ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GFAJ-1#Biochemistry ).

In a "massless" thruster, the theoretical maximum Thrust/Power ratio is 1/c = 0.0033 mN/KW if you don't want to break the conservation of momentum, special relativity or quantum mechanics. You could get this value with an ideal perfectly efficient laser beam. The latest NASA version proclaims (50 uN / 50 W) = 1 mN/KW that is 300x the theoretical maximum, so if it's not an experimental error, it must be breaking some of the currently supposed physic laws.

Re:New human-like species discovered by JoeAltmaier on Thursday September 10, 2015 @09:26AM (#10197859)
Do we still depend on bone structure to define species? DNA analysis is indisputable. Its all speculation until that is done.
Re:New human-like species discovered by ceejayoz on Thursday September 10, 2015 @09:44AM (#10197950)
Re:New human-like species discovered by lighthawk on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:05AM (#10198068)
521 not 512, according to the article you mention.
Re:New human-like species discovered by rkuykendall-com on Thursday September 10, 2015 @01:36PM (#10199395)
> 521 not 512

Rounding to the nearest whole number.

Re:New human-like species discovered by ceejayoz on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:09AM (#10198094)
Typing too fast, thanks! The difference probably won't help bridge the millions of years gap though. :-)
Re:New human-like species discovered by JoeAltmaier on Thursday September 10, 2015 @11:44AM (#10198699)
Yet we have Neanderthal dna? Oh, right, that's only 40,000 years. Not 1-3 million.
Re:New human-like species discovered by jessriedel on Thursday September 10, 2015 @12:04PM (#10198819)
Yea, I wonder how that's reconciled. The Neanderthal DNA comes from a 38k year-old specimen:

> The researchers recovered ancient DNA of Neanderthals by extracting the DNA from the femur bones of three 38,000-year-old female Neanderthal specimens from Vindija Cave, Croatia, and other bones found in Spain, Russia, and Germany.[8] Only about half a gram of the bone samples (or 21 samples each 50–100 mg[1]) was required for the sequencing, but the project faced many difficulties, including the contamination of the samples by the bacteria that had colonized the Neanderthal's body and humans who handled the bones at the excavation site and at the laboratory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_genome_project

2^(38000/521)=10^22, so there must be other effects. That Nature article says

> The team predicts that even in a bone at an ideal preservation temperature of −5 ºC, effectively every bond would be destroyed after a maximum of 6.8 million years. The DNA would cease to be readable much earlier — perhaps after roughly 1.5 million years, when the remaining strands would be too short to give meaningful information.

which I don't know how to square with the 521 year figure. I think maybe 521 years is at the high temp?

Re:New human-like species discovered by colordrops on Thursday September 10, 2015 @02:58PM (#10199873)
Isn't half-life dependent on temperature? Perhaps 521 is at higher temps. Also, half-life does not imply full destruction. By definition, it's destruction of half of the molecules. With enough copies, and a low temperature, it could last much longer than 521 years.
Re:New human-like species discovered by jessriedel on Thursday September 10, 2015 @09:50PM (#10201574)
I believe it's the half-life for each bond. But 10^22 is plenty high enough that essentially all bond are broken, and certainly not enough left to reconstruct the genome. (You need unbroken sections of certain minimal lengths to statistically reconstruct what was there before.)

I think you're right that it's a temperature thing.

Re:New human-like species discovered by jharger on Thursday September 10, 2015 @12:55PM (#10199174)
Either that, or it was preserved in amber ;D
Re:New human-like species discovered by bjelkeman-again on Thursday September 10, 2015 @12:03PM (#10198813)
Yes. The Neanderthal species supposedly died out about 40k years ago. [1] In this article they talk about a species that may be millions of years older.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal

Re:New human-like species discovered by whistlerbrk on Thursday September 10, 2015 @04:48PM (#10200463)
I'm guessing that shotgun sequencing techniques are used -- that is, you don't need full length segments in order to reconstruct significantly long lengths of DNA. Again a guess.
Re:New human-like species discovered by erroneousfunk on Thursday September 10, 2015 @05:31PM (#10200693)
No, they're not used, because they didn't find DNA -- they found rocks. We're dealing with fossils here, not organic matter. Tissue does not last for millions of years.
Re:New human-like species discovered by JoeAltmaier on Thursday September 10, 2015 @05:51PM (#10200774)
Bakker notes that lots of what people call dinosaur fossils are in actuality just bone. Fossilization is rarely a complete or perfect process. So this may in fact be bone.
Re:New human-like species discovered by sunwooz on Thursday September 10, 2015 @05:50PM (#10200767)
Wasn't a scientist able to extract DNA fragments from dinosaur bones by leaving them in an acidic solution?
Re:New human-like species discovered by kissickas on Thursday September 10, 2015 @09:36AM (#10197907)
A species cannot be clearly defined until you try to mate it with something else and it fails to produce a viable offspring, as far as I'm aware. No DNA analysis is indisputable with what we currently know.
Re:New human-like species discovered by scarmig on Thursday September 10, 2015 @01:31PM (#10199369)
There are multiple definitions of species, and we choose whichever abstraction is most useful for a given approach.

The concept of species exists purely as a human, scientific abstraction: evolution/biology doesn't give us absolute categories that you can unambiguously put any organism into.

Re:New human-like species discovered by yawaramin on Thursday September 10, 2015 @08:51PM (#10201432)
Isn't the ability to produce fertile offspring a de facto proof that two organisms are of the same species?
Re:New human-like species discovered by scarmig on Thursday September 10, 2015 @09:02PM (#10201461)
Depends on the context, but generally nope. Consider the example of "ring species"--A can breed with B, B with C, .., Y with Z, and Z with A. However, A can't interbreed with M. What's the species?

That's a somewhat rare version of a general pattern where that abstraction is leaky. Much more common is a temporal version of that. A might beget A1 and B, with A1 begetting A2 and B begetting C, continuing all the way down. And though A can interbreed with A1 and B, and B with C, etc, Z can't interbreed with A25. That's speciation, which happens all the time. The only thing that makes it a clear species is defining the concept species while abandoning time invariance.

Re:New human-like species discovered by biomcgary on Thursday September 10, 2015 @12:30PM (#10199018)
Actually, "species" has multiple competing definitions in the scientific literature. For details see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem

The biological species concept is probably one of the most popular and very similar to what you are suggesting. In this concept, a species is an interbreeding population that is reproductively isolated from other populations (either due to genetics or geography).

Re:New human-like species discovered by GFK_of_xmaspast on Thursday September 10, 2015 @11:00AM (#10198450)
That's a junior high level of explanation tho. 'Species' is ultimately an attempt to impose a quantization of nature, and nature can't always be quantized in a way we'd like.
Re:New human-like species discovered by jacobwcarlson on Thursday September 10, 2015 @11:10AM (#10198510)
Exactly. Species is more of a descriptive term than it is prescriptive.
Re:New human-like species discovered by ithkuil on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:14AM (#10198125)
yeah, and things can get complicated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species
Re:New human-like species discovered by seanalltogether on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:31AM (#10198233)
My impression of defining species wasn't necessarily can they mate, but rather will they mate. Geography and sexual discrimination play as much of a part in separating species as does fertilization.
Re:New human-like species discovered by folli on Thursday September 10, 2015 @02:30PM (#10199715)
So me and Taylor Swift are two seperate species?

In all seriousness, species definition is a case of trying to define a black/white classification in a gradient. It might sort of work in higher animals, such as mammals. But it certainly breaks down in bacteria, which is clearly seen since it's possible to compare genomes on population level.

Re:New human-like species discovered by codeflo on Thursday September 10, 2015 @11:07AM (#10198497)
I'm not a biologist, but my understanding is that animals that can interbreed but usually wouldn't are (if at all) divided into subspecies within the same species.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies

"A taxonomist decides whether to recognize a subspecies or not. A common way to decide is that organisms belonging to different subspecies of the same species are capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring, but they do not interbreed in nature due to geographic isolation or other factors."

Re:New human-like species discovered by mcv on Thursday September 10, 2015 @11:09AM (#10198509)
That's an old and very problematic definition of species. In fact, I believe biologists tend to focus on populations rather than species these days, since those at least can be clearly defined.
Re:New human-like species discovered by rquantz on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:35AM (#10198265)
So dogs and wolves are the same species? I know that different species usually cannot interbreed, but I don't think that's the sole criterion.
Re:New human-like species discovered by kevlened on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:55AM (#10198411)
Interestingly, yes.

"The domestic dog lost its recognition as a separate species in 1993, and is now considered a subspecies of gray wolf."

http://karmatics.com/docs/evolution-species-confusion.html

Re:New human-like species discovered by derefr on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:59AM (#10198439)
"Species" is very clearly defined by "speciation": the point where something becomes too different to interbreed. Usually when two things can interbreed, but have many differences, they are referred to as separate subspecies of the same species.
Re:New human-like species discovered by duaneb on Thursday September 10, 2015 @11:36AM (#10198670)
My understanding is that that particular definition is outdated.
Re:New human-like species discovered by eru on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:05AM (#10198070)
So each infertile individual belongs into their own species?
Re:New human-like species discovered by lambda on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:38AM (#10198276)
You can't use such a literal-minded interpretation in the real world. The real world is complex and fuzzy.

For instance, in species with sexual differentiation, two males or two females cannot mate, but are considered the same species.

For a more precise definition, you would have to, say, look at the probability that a pair of organisms of the appropriate sex from two different populations would be able to mate, and produce viable offspring (that is, offspring that could themselves mate and produce more offspring).

Asking about a single organism that happens to be infertile, or a single pair that happens not to be able to mate or produce viable offspring, is not particularly interesting, but at a population level you could use a statistical test to get a probability distribution, rather than a yes or no answer.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species#Difficulty_defining_or... for more information.

Note also that it can be the case that two different species can mate, and produce offspring, but the offspring itself is not viable (cannot mate and produce offspring). This happens in the case of mating two closely related species, such as when mating a horse and donkey to get a mule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule), or a lion and a tiger to get a liger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger).

Re:New human-like species discovered by pvaldes on Thursday September 10, 2015 @02:01PM (#10199536)
Not always, but some infertile individuals belong to their own new species, yes. It happens all the time with plant hybrids.

Plants can clone itselves so to be infertile is not the same as to be extinct for them. Infertile also means normally something like "99,9999% unable to produce seeds" but with enough time and a high number of tries, planets will align in the polinisation of two "unfertile" stems of the same plant. At the end seeds will be produced and the new species will exit the 'trap' perfectly (or all DNA of the father will be discarded reverting to the original mother species). Is just a question of time.

Re:New human-like species discovered by Ologn on Thursday September 10, 2015 @11:55AM (#10198770)
One method of speciation is reproductive isolation. One model for this is the Bateson–Dobzhansky–Muller model, where if a species is, say, separated by distance, and then subgroup A has a change at one loci, and subgroup B has a change at another loci, and due to these mutations, individuals from subgroup A can no longer reproduce with individuals fom subgroup B - then it can be said that speciation from reproductive isolation has occurred according to this model.
Re:New human-like species discovered by SeldomSoup on Thursday September 10, 2015 @10:18AM (#10198151)
Each one of an infertile individual's parents belongs to its own species.
Re:New human-like species discovered by mcv on Thursday September 10, 2015 @11:11AM (#10198518)
Until they get another child that does turn out to be fertile.
Re:New human-like species discovered by wbhart on Thursday September 10, 2015 @09:35AM (#10197905)
Is there any chance of doing DNA analysis on 3 million year old (presumably fossilised) bones? If in fact that is how old they are.
Re:New human-like species discovered by duaneb on Thursday September 10, 2015 @12:28PM (#10198997)
No. There is basically 0 chance without some sort of extraordinary preservative (like ethanol).
Re:New human-like species discovered by guelo on Thursday September 10, 2015 @05:27PM (#10200668)
I was kind of surprised that they haven't aged the finding yet. The 3 million years number is being thrown around with zero evidence.
Re:New human-like species discovered by dogma1138 on Thursday September 10, 2015 @11:13PM (#10201820)
You need organic material to date which in many cases might not exist with the find.

Other than that you can perform rough estimates based on the soil it was found in, but those in many cases might be off by quite a bit.