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Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by mikeash on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @10:44AM (#10191731)
The article assumes that if you defend public libraries, you must defend them for the same reason the author defends them, and that particular reason happens to fit well with file sharing.

But there are other reasons to defend public libraries than simply the fact that they disseminate knowledge and this is worth carving out an exception in copyright. I think most people would defend public libraries on the basis of the doctrine of first sale: after an author sells a copy of a work, they can't control how you use it. As long as you're not making unauthorized copies of it, you can lend it out or do whatever else you like with it.

Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by scintill76 on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @11:32AM (#10192041)
I think you're looking at it differently than Falkvinge (granted, he may be willfully contorting his perspective to whatever fits his argument.) Wikipedia says about the Libraries Act[1], "The Capitalist economic model had created shift patterns which left workers with free time[...] Campaigners felt that encouraging the lower classes to spend their free time on morally uplifting activities, such as reading, would promote greater social good." A committee reported, "the first step taken by a foreign writer was to consult a public library on the subject of his studies or composition; we find that no such auxiliary was at the service of the British intellect." So, the supposed reason (for the British, at least), was for the public good and intellect. The first sale doctrine is a legal defense, which is not the same as a reason public libraries should exist or why they are good.

This may be somewhat muddied by his use of "defend" everywhere, rather than something else. Anyway, I think he has a decent point, that libraries were last century's big threat to IP holders (would have liked to see some citations on the controversy though), the government decided a public good would be served with a smallish sacrifice from the industry, and that filesharing is a similar but much more efficient execution of that public service (but at perhaps too big of a cost to the IP holders.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Libraries_Act_1850

Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by mikeash on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @11:38AM (#10192079)
Well yes, I'm looking at it differently, that's my whole point. The article is saying that if you defend one you must defend the other. My point is that if you look at things from a different perspective then it's quite easy to defend one without defending the other.

It's all about whether you look at libraries as an exception to copyright which has been carved out for the public good, or whether you look at libraries as something that is naturally allowed within copyright.

Put it another way: the article argues on the basis of a library's purpose. I'm ignoring that, and merely looking at a library's right to exist. If you see the purpose coming first, and the right to exist being created on the basis of that purpose, then the argument in the article holds. If you see the right to exist coming first, and the purpose merely being why people take advantage of that right, then you get my position.

Maybe this is one of those American versus European things. It looks from my cursory examination (and I could easily be wrong, and welcome a more informed opinion from anyone who knows better) that the doctrine of first sale is an American thing, and European laws give more rights to the copyright holder.

Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by scintill76 on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @11:53AM (#10192172)
Yeah, it does seem Europeans have more copyright rights, as others in the thread are citing copyright-based royalties that libraries have to pay (which kind of undermines his argument too.) I don't really know how the history/law worked, but at least the way he claims, "they made explicit exceptions to the copyright monopoly for the benefit of public access to culture and knowledge." I guess in America a special exception is not really needed. I think we're on the same page about the difference.
Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by mikeash on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @12:01PM (#10192226)
And just to be clear, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with the idea that libraries serve a special purpose that should be enshrined in law, and that this then implies something about file sharing. I just don't think it's a position one necessarily must have, so the premise of the article is wrong because of that.
Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by grecy on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @11:20AM (#10191966)
And this concept is shackling libraries today.

My local library will only allow one person to "borrow" a given e-book at a time. You must wait until someone else returns it before you can "borrow" it for a set period of time.

Obviously this is nonsense, and if the library were interested in efficient lending, they'd let everyone that wanted it borrow the e-book at the same time.

IMO, the same applies to DVDs - why not let thousands of people "borrow" a digital copy of a DVD simultaneously

Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by rhino369 on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @12:40PM (#10192462)
But it's always been nonsense. A library could print their own copy of books for hundreds of years. They could easily do it since Xerox was invented. Digital just reduces the cost to copying just a little bit.

There is a fundamental difference between loaning and copying, both from a legal and moral perspective.

Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by lazylizard on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @01:38PM (#10192816)
how can one return the song one just heard on radio? does anyone intend to?
Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by Nadya on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @01:53PM (#10192921)
>As long as you're not making unauthorized copies of it, you can lend it out or do whatever else you like with it.

How does this work with files? How do I distribute a file without also copying it?

If I cut->paste instead of copy->paste the file for a friend, am I distributing my original file? What happens if I give my friend my music library and decide to buy myself new music?

I'm allowed to make copies of my music for personal use (otherwise good luck getting that MP3 on your computer to play on your mobile device). I make a copy and give the original to a friend. My friend then makes a copy of the original and gives the original to their friend. The copies made are authorized and we're lending out the original.

It doesn't work once you leave physical constraints on scarcity and existence.

Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by mikeash on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:52PM (#10194026)
You're right, once you hit the digital realm things change a lot.

Which is exactly why I think it's silly to think that one's views on libraries must decide one's views on file sharing. They're extremely different things.

Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by moviuro on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @10:47AM (#10191747)
How is reading a book different of watching a movie? When I'm done, I can return the book/delete the movie.

The only difference is outlined in the article: the movie can be watched simultaneously by different people who got it, whilst I'm the only one with the book in my hands.

Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by mikeash on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @10:50AM (#10191769)
Yes, and that's the doctrine of first sale: you can do what you like with a copy you own, besides make additional unauthorized copies.

As such, libraries operate within the law and within the spirit of copyright, while file sharing doesn't.

You can certainly object to the spirit of copyright as expressed here, but there's nothing inconsistent about supporting it, and supporting public libraries.

Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by lumisota on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @10:50AM (#10191771)
You say "only" as if this isn't an important distinction in terms of creating value for a copyrighted work.
Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @10:51AM (#10191781)
Confused: you can 'return' the movie AND keep a copy, which you distribute widely thus ruining any chance of the creator profiting by their work.

Can't do that with the physical book. Not for free anyway.

Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by shripadk on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @11:08AM (#10191894)
You can scan the book and distribute digital copies of it for free. The only investment is time required to scan the books.
Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by e28eta on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @11:21AM (#10191968)
You can also steal a book from the library under your jacket, and then you don't have to return it. It doesn't mean it's legal or right.
Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by shripadk on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @12:08PM (#10192262)
I was just countering his point on copying physical books: "Can't do that with the physical book. Not for free anyway."

Stealing a book doesn't amount to copying the book and returning it.

Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by an0nym1ty on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @10:50AM (#10191767)
Is that not one of the most common analogies used by Pirates, the similarities between file sharing and lending a book or movie to a friend? That argument has failed for file sharing, what makes your argument different?
Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by mikeash on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @10:52AM (#10191784)
The fact that file sharing involves copying, not lending existing copies, is significant. If pirates make that analogy then they're being ridiculous. I'm not sure I've seen it made myself.
Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @11:16AM (#10191941)
If such sharing were allowed - and I do recall schemes for it, our UK library does [did at least] such a thing and it's used in software (eg Steam allows you to share with a family member but you can't both use the game simulataneously [based on docs not experience]) - then people would embrace it. For example we share our physical DVD collection with any of our friends that ask, we'd be more than happy to have a collection in common of media with a network of friends such that 10 families could purchase items and have them in kind, only being able to use them serially.

The problem with this is that you could get a network of 1000s of households/users and still rarely have clashes in use. Such clashes could be managed such that additional copies are purchased (or the user chooses an alternative item of media) as needed. Then you're probably going to be able to serve 10s of thousands in a group and still reduce overall number of media items purchased.

That's the halfway point between torrent style file sharing and library lending. Imagine you could access the currently used media libraries of all your friends (and "friends") ...

Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by shripadk on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @11:12AM (#10191919)
Lending existing copies does not prevent copying. I have come across plenty of "pirated" physical copies of various literature sold for a fraction of the actual cost.
Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by mikeash on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @11:19AM (#10191959)
Who said anything about preventing copying? I'm just saying that the way libraries operate does not involve making their own copies, which is a (and I would say the) significant difference from file sharing, in terms of morality and legality.
Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by shripadk on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @12:14PM (#10192294)
That is an important point which you are not seeing. I can share a file (an ebook) with my "friend" which i acquired legitimately. He then makes a copy of it and distributes it via a file sharing site.

Similarly, I can borrow a book from a public library and make digital copies of it and distribute it. In fact some illegal copies of ebooks you find on file sharing sites are scanned copies of legitimately acquired physical copies (I have personally come across comics with library seals in one of the scanned pirated digital copies). Some pirates also distribute colored xerox copies of physical copies acquired from libraries.

The only difference between the two is time taken to do it.

Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by mikeash on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:50PM (#10194005)
I understand all of that, but how is it relevant to the question of the utility, legality, and morality of libraries and file sharing? The fact that people can do legally or morally questionable things with the stuff they borrow from libraries has no real bearing on the legality or morality of the libraries themselves.
Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by shripadk on Thursday September 10, 2015 @12:19AM (#10196127)
Can't the same be said for file sharing sites? Why hold the file sharing sites accountable and question it's legality or morality when its the responsibility of the people (the user in this case) to be legally or morally accountable. Unless the file sharing sites themselves are uploading illegal items (like Grooveshark) I strongly believe you can't hold the site accountable. Libraries aren't held accountable for piracy that is caused because of it. When I see an ebook that has a library seal I wonder what kind of people the Library is lending books to. Is there any background checks done at all? When no one cares about that aspect why suddenly care about the morality and legality of file sharing sites? Its just hypocrisy at its best.
Re:You can't defend public libraries and oppose file-sharing by shripadk on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @12:22PM (#10192337)
All I'm trying to say is that you need to see the bigger picture. When it comes to file sharing people talk about "millions" of times the particular file has been downloaded only because such a statistic is easily available. Nobody questions that when it comes to Libraries lending out copies because no one looks at what happens in between the time the copy is lent and returned. Can you find any statistic that tells you how many of the "lent" library books have been pirated? For physical book pirates, libraries are a boon. They get access to thousands of books for free/cheap.