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Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by russell on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @02:34PM (#10154662)
As soon as I saw the title, I thought of the furor when Gingrich and Clinton discovered that the FAA was using vacuum tube computers and radar in the air traffic control system. http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/npr/library/clinton.htm The foreign (sole) vacuum tube supplier that Clinton mentioned was Russia. Oh, the embarrassment!

I knew that there were some delays in rolling out the the replacement system, so I did some googling to see when it actually occurred. My god, it's now. We are in the middle of it. The upgrade was responsible for the recent air traffic meltdown. Please somebody, point out my flawed research skills. I cant believe this.

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by steve-howard on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @03:09PM (#10154930)
I found this article from Wired earlier this year: http://www.wired.com/2015/02/air-traffic-control/

It doesn't specificaly mention vacuum tubes, but it does explain why it's entirely plausible that they're still around:

>This technology is complicated and novel, but that isn't the problem. The problem is that NextGen is a project of the FAA. The agency is primarily a regulatory body, responsible for keeping the national airspace safe, and yet it is also in charge of operating air traffic control, an inherent conflict that causes big issues when it comes to upgrades. Modernization, a struggle for any federal agency, is practically antithetical to the FAA's operational culture, which is risk-averse, methodical, and bureaucratic. Paired with this is the lack of anything approximating market pressure. The FAA is the sole consumer of the product; it's a closed loop.

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by _delirium on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @08:25PM (#10156726)
I'm skeptical that the culprit is mainly to be found in specific features of the FAA, and the article doesn't seem to provide much causal evidence of that (though I recognize that it's hard to prove that kind of causality). Major upgrades/replacements/migrations either failing or coming in a decade late and billions over budget is the norm in Fortune 500 companies, too, which leads to a hypothesis that it's a more general problem with big rewrites of safety/business-critical systems in large organizations.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by monochromatic on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @10:05PM (#10157043)
> billions over budget

Well, maybe millions. A billion dollars is real money to anything except the federal government.

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by hga on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @10:00PM (#10157032)
And it's also happened a lot with the IRS, for whom IT is a core competency.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by warfangle on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @05:01PM (#10155711)
A similarly embarrassing state of affairs is the train traffic control system used by the NYC subway system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjx3S3UjmnA
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by jholman on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @08:43PM (#10156789)
Wow. Their end-goal upgrade, the one that they've installed on one line, and are installing on everything else looks so antiquated.

My city's subway/elevated train system will be 30 years old this December. Train control is fully automated; there are no drivers on trains, and in normal operation there is no remote (human) operator either. It's been automated for 30 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTrain_(Vancouver)

(Side note: during the BART strike, some HN commenters suggested computers to replace drivers, and other commenters said that wouldn't be safe. Such hilarious technophobia on HN.)

I don't want to trivialize NYC's challenges and accomplishments: for one thing their system is far, far more complicated (468 stations on 34 lines, vs 47 stations on 3 lines), and for another we all know it's very hard to upgrade legacy systems.

But I'm astonished that they would work so hard to modernize their 1930s technology to 1970s standards in the 2010s.

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by bdonlan on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @03:37AM (#10157891)
The problem with some of these old lines is that they might have level crossings in which pedestrians or cars might occupy the tracks - so someone needs to be there to stop the train if that happens. Fully automated systems like the SkyTrain or Japan's Yurikamome line have grade-separated tracks (and in some cases platform gates as well) to ensure that sort of incursion doesn't happen.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by warfangle on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @04:03PM (#10161579)
The NYC subway system has no level crossings where pedestrians can occupy the tracks.

The only level crossing where another train might occupy the tracks is Queens-bound from the JMZ stop at Myrtle Ave & Broadway in Brooklyn. The M crosses at grade over the J/Z track.

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by wil421 on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @09:18PM (#10156906)
Some less technology minded people would actually be freaked out by automated trains. The airport where I live has automated trains to go between gates and the cars very closely resemble the public trains cars without the seats.

Most likely its not a technical challenge its a bureaucratic problem. Not to mention the unions aren't going to let the transit authority obsolete their jobs.

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by spacecowboy_lon on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @03:35AM (#10157884)
You know that the 30's gear on the Tube was more reliable than the 1970's stuff?
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by benihana on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @09:20PM (#10156912)
Another thing about the NYC subway is that it runs 24 hours a day 365 days a year. Not many metros around the world can make that claim.

Living in New York, the amazing thing about the subway system is how they keep it running. It's old and ridiculously complex, and despite what natives say, the MTA by and large does a good job running it. There's no political will to fix it right now. It's going to take trains becoming unsafe or costing so much to keep safe that people eventually notice and start making noise about it, I think.

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by warfangle on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @04:00PM (#10161554)
Yep. They do a pretty darn good job, considering what they have to work with.

And I'm not talking just the technology - they have 31 billion dollars of debt to service, and constantly get the shaft from Albany when it comes to funding. They continue to take on debt because they have mandated projects and lack the funding to complete them.

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by jonawesomegreen on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @06:37PM (#10156281)
That is fascinating, thanks for sharing. I had no idea the NYC subway was being run by a 100 year old electro-mechanical system.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by hga on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @07:21PM (#10156478)
The D.C. Metro system was planed in the '60 and constructed in the '70s, with the first operations starting in 1976. It too is based on electro-mechanical relays, although it's more ambitious, after the operator closes the doors and sees all is fine, he hits a "go" button and the system automatically takes the train to the next station, avoiding collisions as long as the "is there a train in the next segment" sensor system is working.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by JonathonW on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @10:32PM (#10157117)
The DC Metro actually (mostly) hasn't used their automatic train control system in full automatic mode since a collision in 2009 that killed nine (for which the ATC system was directly responsible; a faulty circuit both forced a train to stop and rendered it invisible to the control system).

Safe train control seems like it needs a little more sophistication than '60s or '70s tech was able to give. For one, it's common sense that a train that disappears from the system isn't really gone-- but the Metro system couldn't take that into account. Stuff like that should be pretty trivial today.

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @11:12PM (#10157225)
> For one, it's common sense that a train that disappears from the system isn't really gone-- but the Metro system couldn't take that into account. Stuff like that should be pretty trivial today.

It was pretty trivial in the 1970s. Require the sensor for an adjacent segment to be engaged before the sensor for an active segment will disengage.

You can't do any computation with modern computers that you couldn't have done with relays in the 1970s, or the 1870s for that matter. Mechanical relays are slower, less reliable and more expensive than transistors... but they do the same thing.

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by Symbiote on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @02:07AM (#10157667)
The Victoria Line was the first automatic railway, opening in 1968. There have been no accidents.

The system was replaced a couple of years ago with a new one, to allow an even higher frequency of service.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_line

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by Animats on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @12:57AM (#10157505)
They're showing a really old tower in that video. Most of the system does not use mechanical lever interlocking machines. It's mostly General Railway Signal NX, which is entirely relay-based.

NX, (for eNtry eXit), is probably the first system with an intelligent user interface. The dispatcher has a track map, with lights showing which blocks are occupied. To route a train through the controlled area, the dispatcher pushes a button on the track map at the current location of the train. Lights then come on for all the places the train can reach from there. This takes into account other trains present, other routes already set up, and track or switches locked out for maintenance. The dispatcher presses an exit button where the train is to go, which locks in the route. All the signals and switches are automatically set by that one button press, and conflicting changes and routes are locked out. As the train progresses through the control area, the switches and track behind it are released, and can be used for other trains.

It's designed to be fail-safe. There are "train stop" devices at every signal. These raise a big metal lever at the right of the rails. On the lead truck of each subway car, there's a big metal lever connected directly to an air valve for the air brakes. If a train passes a red signal, the air valve trip lever hits the train stop, which slams on the brakes and cuts power. The signal system even checks the position of the train stop devices; there are always at least two train stop devices up and locked between two trains, and train stops can't clear until the next one is up and locked.

It's a good system. The main problem is the sheer number of relays and the amount of wiring required.

Train detection is by checking if the rails are shorted together by wheels. In keeping with the fail safe concept, the power for that check is fed into one end of the block, and it's sensed at the other end. Thus, a rail break or a power supply failure causes the system to sense a train and set signals red. On electric railroads, the rails are also the power return for traction power. (The London system, with two power rails, is an exception.) So the sensing signals have to be different from traction power. They're usually audio frequency signals, with a different frequency used for adjacent blocks. At block ends, there's a low-pass filter capable of handling a few thousand amps, basically a big inductor. One of those failed in DC, causing a crash.

Washington, DC has a similar system, but on top of it, they have a computer-controlled system for dispatching. This is quite common - a dumb, reliable system based on trackside equipment for safety, and a computer-controlled system for scheduling and dispatching.

All this stuff has to handle snow, ice, snowplows, flooding, the huge traction currents (600VDC in New York), and lightning strikes on the rails as part of normal operation. So everything is in hulking iron and steel cases and very rugged.

There's a relay-level simulator for NX.[1] Runs on Windows.

[1] http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/NXSYS,_Signalling_and_Interloc...

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by Apofis on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @05:38PM (#10162054)
That's really cool! Living in NYC, I didn't even know this.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by smackfu on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @04:00PM (#10155278)
For more context, the vacuum tube computers were only around in 1995 because a massive decade-long upgrade project failed in 1994.

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/stories/1993-04-25/flying-in-pla...

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by q4814 on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @03:15PM (#10154969)
It's possible that the computers didn't run on tubes but rather the radar systems. The two may have been conflated. I believe I've read that tubes are still quite common in high-power radio transmitters because they're more effective than solid-state components. Still a bad situation, but maybe not as sensational as it appears on the surface.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by russell on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @03:56PM (#10155255)
I looked at several articles before I posted and I saw several mentions of "computers and radars", which matches my recollection from the time. The computers were a special purpose design, not commercially available systems, so they could have been controllers as opposed to large data processors, but the controversy was definitely about computers and not about the high-power tubes used by the radars themselves.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by jweather on Thursday September 03, 2015 @10:26AM (#10165109)
Radar and satellite systems still use traveling-wave tubes in the RF signal chain. The reference to tubes could also be the radar displays, which were traditionally vector CRTs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveling-wave_tube
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by protomyth on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @03:29PM (#10155064)
Russia used tubes in a number of fighter radars because they could use a lot of power to burn through opponent's ECM.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by bch on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @04:40PM (#10155528)
ECM is presumably https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_countermeasure ...

(if dear reader, like me, had no idea what ECM meant in this context).

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by njharman on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @03:51PM (#10155219)
Also less prone to EMP from nukes.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by protomyth on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @04:32PM (#10155457)
True, also a well understood technology that they would have no trouble producing.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by bigiain on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @08:40PM (#10156775)
I bet it's only "well understood" by a very small group of people in 2015.

On the other hand, at least it's _possible_ to make your own at home: http://makezine.com/2008/01/07/make-your-own-vacuum-tube/

I somehow doubt there's many talented amateurs assembling MOSFETs in their garages...

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by protomyth on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @08:21AM (#10158678)
Perhaps I should have said "institutional experience", but the number of people creating fighter radars at the time were not exactly numerous.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by TrevorJj on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @04:36PM (#10155493)
I was in the control tower of an international airport as recently as 4 years ago, and can confirm that at least some of the systems were still built on 1960's technology - the radar scopes were basically pre-CRT technology. On the other hand, for something as fault-intolerant as air traffic control there's a huge amount of value in reliable, well understood systems.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by twic on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @05:38PM (#10155941)
Pre-CRT? You mean like John Logie-Baird type stuff?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_television

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by omegaham on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @09:01PM (#10156859)
I worked in an ATC tower with the Marines, and we used the AN/FPN-63 as our precision approach radar. It came into existence around 1958, I believe. The scopes looked something like this, but even more primitive: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/PAR_Scop...

It was maintained with duct tape, gummi bears, and black magic, as the suppliers for said parts had long, long since gone out of business.

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by jweather on Thursday September 03, 2015 @10:27AM (#10165114)
Vector tube displays, most likely.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by acomjean on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @04:55PM (#10155658)
Probably Raytheon's STAR program. I wasn't involved but one from inside it was rumored to be one of the biggest boondoggles there (and thats saying something). I think it inspired the "yesterdays technology tomorrow" motto.
Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by photosinensis on Wednesday September 02, 2015 @05:19PM (#10161953)
And I know for a fact that they still haven't managed to kill it, despite actual internal will to do so.

If it is Raytheon's STAR program, the consultancy is probably CSC.

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by 6stringmerc on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @04:39PM (#10155520)
When working in risk management business development, my firm was pursuing some line of business with Sabre. Most probably know, but they're in the travel logistics business primarily. A spinoff from American Airlines.

Anyway, when I was getting materials together, I reviewed the CEO's summary remarks and looking ahead to the future. Over, and over, and over, and over again he railed at the FAA and government for not enhancing the flight systems nationwide. It would've been funny if he wasn't so right in his passionate pleas.

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by ilaksh on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @07:34PM (#10156531)
It is clear to me that the government is not only a criminal organization but also dangerously incompetent.

Therefore we have a moral obligation to replace government institutions with high tech systems and protocols that are not reliant on the government for support.

Re:The most obsolete infrastructure money could buy – my wor... by D-Coder on Tuesday September 01, 2015 @08:36PM (#10156762)
C, C++, bash, javascript...