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Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by navait on Friday August 21, 2015 @09:41AM (#10097344)
From a cost standpoint it makes sense. You're capturing most students. How many students will use a gifted program? They will require dedicated teachers and staff, and their own curriculum. That's not cheap, and not subsidized by the federal government, unlike students under IEPs.
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by goodcanadian on Friday August 21, 2015 @10:22AM (#10097627)
So it is OK to use dedicated teachers and staff as well as a special curriculum for the kids at the bottom, but when you suggest it for kids at the top, it is too expensive?

Your point about government subsidy is on the mark, but why are the kids at the bottom subsidised while those at the top are left to languish? It illustrates a double standard that has somehow become embedded in the culture of the country. If Americans truly believed in giving each child their fair share, then politics would force the resources to be spread more evenly.

Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by douche on Friday August 21, 2015 @12:07PM (#10098398)
In absolute terms, it would really be much cheaper to provide the resources to push the gifted students than what is spent on the lowest-performing students. $1000 dollars worth of books, software and a cheap laptop per student per year is far cheaper than hiring a one-on-one ed tech at $20-30k to babysit children with severe learning disabilities and behavior issues, or the still greater sums on the "severe and profound" students that have to be "educated" until they age out.
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by GauntletWizard on Friday August 21, 2015 @01:19PM (#10098919)
Further, in terms of societal impact, the productivity from a well-educated gifted student is going to greatly outmatch the gains from 'educating' a low-achiever.
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by 6stringmerc on Friday August 21, 2015 @11:57AM (#10098335)
Regarding the "why" notion of so much effort being put into the kids at the bottom, it's my personal experience that the most vocal parents tend to come from the pool toward the bottom, be it physically or mentally disabled. They have a point, certainly, in asserting their children have a right to equal access...but I do think the costs associated with such access typically burden the state far more than the parent in terms of accommodation. As in, some special needs kids genuinely don't belong in mainstream education environments, but through parental outcry and pressure, sometimes this gets over-ruled.

What has bothered me the most, time and again, is the assumption that smart kids will 'turn out fine' without additional challenges and, by contrast, there's any reasonable ROI expectation with the a large portion of developmentally challenged / mentally deficient kids. It's a sensitive issue for sure. Somehow just postulating this kind of thinking draws up feelings of insensitivity, but I'm trying to focus on some empirical observations. Difficult tight rope!

Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by s73v3r on Friday August 21, 2015 @01:21PM (#10098930)
They're required to make sure the kids at the bottom can pass. The kids at the top already are passing, so spending money on them is extra.
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by Retric on Friday August 21, 2015 @09:52AM (#10097414)
Economically, gifted students are likely to have an outsized impact which justifies increased investment. The real issue is most 'gifted' programs are a joke with little impact.
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by wfo on Friday August 21, 2015 @01:07PM (#10098847)
Economically, education is a public subsidy that helps private wealth. Taxpayers pay for your worker training for free. In exchange society makes some demands on the educational process, primarily that it spend some amount of time preparing students to be responsible citizens/members of society alongside the office drone prep these gifted programs want to accelerate.

Keeping all the smart kids locked in an ivory tower where they don't have to deal with humanity or ever get any context into how society actually works is how you get Ayn Rand afficionados well past the age-appropriate teenage years, and nobody wants that.

Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by ForHackernews on Friday August 21, 2015 @10:35AM (#10097713)
Edit: Parent was missing a comma. Punctuation is important.
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by graeme on Friday August 21, 2015 @10:42AM (#10097778)
I think they forgot a comma. "Economically, gifted students are likely to have an outsized impact"

If there's a sensible read of someone's comment it's preferable to use that interpretation. "Economically gifted" makes no sense in the context of the discussion.

The OP was saying your tax dollars are likely to get a good return by fostering the progress of gifted students.

Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by Glide on Friday August 21, 2015 @10:54AM (#10097885)
Seeing as a lot of people are pointing out the omission of a comma, what would you say to a person who wasn't economically fortunate but ended up in a GT program? Would that justify the tax expense?
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by brewdad on Friday August 21, 2015 @10:43AM (#10097788)
I think there's a comma missing there. Plenty of gifted students in my son's school qualify for the free lunch program.
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by Jtsummers on Friday August 21, 2015 @10:42AM (#10097775)
Or you can realize that GP left out a comma, or with a slight rephrasing:

  Economically speaking, gifted students ...
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by smanatstpete on Friday August 21, 2015 @10:42AM (#10097769)
I think Retric meant Economically, gifted students...
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by navait on Friday August 21, 2015 @09:56AM (#10097452)
> Economically gifted students are likely to have an outsized impact

If you do that, you basically just dumped a bunch of money into kids that are immediatley leaving for somewhere else. It's like global warming; why cut emissions for someone else's benefit compared to your own?

Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by jerf on Friday August 21, 2015 @10:12AM (#10097564)
We fund schools because on the whole it all works out; if San Francisco teaches a kid who moves to New York, well, New York taught a kid that moved to Portland and Portland taught a kid that moved to a Kansas farm and Kansas taught a kid that moved to Texas, and in the end everybody wins pretty well.
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by jschwartzi on Friday August 21, 2015 @10:11AM (#10097558)
Can you please elaborate or share some kind of story on why you think this would happen? Where are they leaving to, and why?
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by afarrell on Friday August 21, 2015 @10:15AM (#10097587)
jerf, the problem is that there is nothing to keep Alabama from defecting, except for the fact that educated people like to live around places with good education systems and tend to vote in favor of education.
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by benkuykendall on Friday August 21, 2015 @11:31AM (#10098142)
Magnet schools can fix this issue. If you have 10 high schools, running 1 as a gifted program and the other 9 as before should not cost significantly more.

Of course, people complain about negative effects on the remaining schools [0] on the basis that removing gifted students hurts the remaining ones. This seems like a strange concern to me -- why should gifted students be responsible for pulling up their peers?

[0] http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/magnet-schools-m...

Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by AlexEatsKittens on Friday August 21, 2015 @11:55AM (#10098322)
It's an interesting concept. I agree with you completely, but we're basically saying that the gifted have no responsibility to the average and below average. While in this specific situation, it seems obvious that a child shouldn't have to receive a lower quality education in order the help those with less ability, that concept has some Randian implications if you extrapolate it to society in general.
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by peterfirefly on Friday August 21, 2015 @04:07PM (#10099901)
They are going to spend the rest of their lives helping those with less ability -- who do they have to be handicapped in school so as to be less capable of doing so? And have a miserable time of it to boot?
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by rayiner on Friday August 21, 2015 @12:04PM (#10098381)
The point in that article is a bit more subtle than that: "What should have been done was to pull out the bottom ten percent."

The author's thesis is that the real benefit, to average and gifted kids alike, is not having to be in the same class as the bottom rung of kids.

I find that thesis at least plausible. I went to regular public school for K-8, then a magnet school for 9-12. It's really the bottom 10%, usually kids with behavioral or social problems, that makes the experience worse for everyone.

At the same time, I'm not sure my magnet school experience would've been appreciably worse with a bunch of average kids in the class. Maybe the teachers would have had to teach the material more slowly and we would've covered less of it, but the fact is that very little you learn in K-12 matters anyway.

Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by nitrogen on Friday August 21, 2015 @12:47PM (#10098705)
the fact is that very little you learn in K-12 matters anyway

And herein lies the problem with K-12 for gifted students. Why should kids be learning things that don't matter when they are capable of more?

(Note: I disagree with the claim that little in K12 matters; every bit of knowledge lays the foundation for the next layer of abstraction. E.g. counting->arithmetic->algebra->calculus/statistics, or alphabet->spelling->vocabulary->grammar->reading->writing->essay writing/research.)

Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by dragonwriter on Friday August 21, 2015 @12:57PM (#10098778)
> but the fact is that very little you learn in K-12 matters anyway.

I disagree. Most of what is learned in K-12 is foundational for things learned later (literacy, numeracy, and basic social skills at the earlier grades, more developed hard and soft analytical and communications skills in later grades.) Even to the extent that the nominal subject matter may not be particularly generally useful later, it tends to serve as a focus for more generally applicable skills.

Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by rayiner on Friday August 21, 2015 @02:20PM (#10099303)
My point is that covering more or less of the nominal subject matter doesn't particularly matter because the nominal subject matter isn't particularly useful itself.
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by Lawtonfogle on Friday August 21, 2015 @11:44AM (#10098239)
>why should gifted students be responsible for pulling up their peers?

Some variant of academic socialism?

Could it be packaged with social socialism for the gifted kids who lack in other social areas?

Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by s73v3r on Friday August 21, 2015 @01:29PM (#10098973)
What if there is only one high school in the area?

Also, the argument isn't that gifted students are responsible for pulling up peers. The argument is that by being around people like that, it benefits others. Much like integrating schools and having different income levels in the same school helps others.

Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by dublinben on Friday August 21, 2015 @11:56AM (#10098324)
The gifted students are already segregated into their upper level classes. They have little to no contact with average students outside of the cafeteria or gym class.
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by dragonwriter on Friday August 21, 2015 @12:00PM (#10098353)
> The gifted students are already segregated into their upper level classes.

Unless you have a special gifted program, that's generally only true in high school and maybe middle school, and (even then), is subject to the availability of distinct "upper level" classes, which even in high schools may be limited in districts where the effort is focused on maintaining the middle and bringing up the bottom.

Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by danielweber on Friday August 21, 2015 @12:49PM (#10098718)
Some people view the children in public schools as resources to be applied to their own ends.
Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by dragonwriter on Friday August 21, 2015 @10:00AM (#10097485)
That may be less true if you consider the costs of dealing with the disruptions caused by the behavioral problems frequently displayed by unchallenged gifted students.

But, yes, there's a lot of government policy at all levels that favors focussing on the low end and ignoring the high end of the ability scale -- that's exactly the thing that seems to be the focus of the complaint. So saying that the thing being complained about makes sense because of the exact thing being complained about is, somewhat circular logic.

Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by ironchef on Friday August 21, 2015 @12:37PM (#10098646)
"From a cost standpoint it makes sense." Only if you view education as a cost center. What's the ROI of spending on gifted education? I've not seen such studies; however, what if you could dramatically improve GDP, etc. based on supporting gifted individuals.

"How many students will use a gifted program?" Approximately 6 to 10% are gifted

"They will require dedicated teachers and staff, and their own curriculum." Not necessarily. They may (depending on levels of giftedness); however, differentiation and what not are also acceptable approaches in some cases.

Re:The Bright Students Left Behind by jackmaney on Friday August 21, 2015 @11:30AM (#10098135)
You aren't accounting for an enormous cost, should we stay on this path for much longer: brain drain.