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Re:Corn Wars by ethbro on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @05:27PM (#10082320)
(This comment is going to get me so much hate, but match to kindling...)

Monsanto, DuPont Pioneer, Syngenta et al. are easy boogeymen. So are pharmaceutical companies.

I mean, they're just like the *AA, trying to create artificial scarcity through draconian IP laws, no?

No.

You may argue about compensation, and whether they're using unfair market tactics or taking an excessive share of the profits created by their products. But when you boil it down, these companies are burning incredible amounts of money (and talent) to fuel R&D engines that are literally keeping humans alive.

Look at Monsanto's research pipeline:

http://www.monsanto.com/products/pages/research-development-...

http://www.monsanto.com/investors/documents/2015/2015.01.07_...

Those profits aren't just being pissed into the wind. These are extremely competitive industries, doing cutting edge science, with the goal of feeding and/or healing humans. How downright evil of them.

I'm probably just as suspicious about GMOs as the next guy, but I've yet to hear any of the anti-GMO / anti-Big-Ag crowd propose a feasible solution for how we're going to keep pace with a ballooning world population. Farm to table or heritage variants don't feed the world. And it's just not cheap to (a) make something useful & (b) make sure it doesn't kill anyone.

If you think Big Ag is a problem, try imagining what a world with steadily declining food security looks like in terms of stability.

End result? Yes, protecting the golden goose so that it can keep laying eggs merits some extraordinary protections. Although, like everything else, I'm perfectly willing to debate on whether those are not-enough, just-right, or too-far. But I don't see how "none" gives us a very nice future.

Re:Corn Wars by rayiner on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @05:39PM (#10082398)
> These are extremely competitive industries, doing cutting edge science, with the goal of feeding and/or healing humans. How downright evil of them.

There's this idea that certain classes of activity are "too important" for profit-motive to be allowed. Education, healthcare, science, and agriculture usually fall in the line of fire. These people cheer on the companies that make their money in advertising or solving first world problems and demonize those that work on the capital-intensive problems in healthcare, science, or agriculture. Then they loudly complain about how the best of the best are going into the wrong lines of work. It's bonkers.

Moral tale: my brother was at the top of his class at an Ivy-league school and got his degree in physics. He did lab research on nanotechnology since high school. He seriously considered getting his PhD in physics. I counseled him to go to Wall Street instead, which he did. Now he makes a bunch of money and couldn't be happier.

What's my point? Getting a PhD in a hard science should be a license to print money like going into advertising or finance. Until that's true, you're not going to get the allocation of social resources you want. And government research isn't a solution to that. You'll never make a bunch of money working for the government. And if e.g. the government lets people keep the patents on research that's initially publicly-funded, so they can make a bunch of money on the endeavor, then the aforementioned people will demonize that as evil.

Re:Corn Wars by tomp on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @05:51PM (#10082459)
It's not that they are "too important" for profit, it's that the supply and demand laws are such that a free market is very hard to establish.

Taking healthcare for example, the incentives of the buyers (patients) and sellers (doctors) are inherently conflicting, as the former seek health, while the latter benefit when the former are sick. Furthermore, the patients very often urgently need help and don't have the time (nor the knowledge) to "shop around".

Or education. The "value" of a college is the increase in lifetime income vs. a high-school education, but given the slow feedback cycle (30 years or so of working) the market equilibrium is trending towards the price of college being the discounted value of all discretionary income of the graduates. This is aided by the US government that guarantees the loans and prevents them being discharged in bankruptcy.

A similar field is also infrastructure.

None of these fields must inherently be constrained by the government, but they need to be regulated in such a way that a free competition is encouraged.

Re:Corn Wars by rayiner on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @06:19PM (#10082594)
> Taking healthcare for example, the incentives of the buyers (patients) and sellers (doctors) are inherently conflicting, as the former seek health, while the latter benefit when the former are sick.

That's trivially true of almost every market. People want food but restaurants benefit when the former are hungry!

Re:Corn Wars by tomp on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @06:38PM (#10082678)
That's true. Which is why restaurants in tourist spots should be less trusted. But most other restaurants have enough returning customers, and the customers have enough knowledge about the product they're buying, that the feedback loop (good product -> more profit) is much more direct.
Re:Corn Wars by gress on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @09:54PM (#10083308)
That ignores the issue - being hungry is a basic need and it's ok that we keep getting hungry and meeting that need through restaurants.

People getting sick is not a basic need unless you are a healthcare company. That's why the incentives are conflicting.

Re:Corn Wars by rayiner on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @11:11PM (#10083509)
Getting hungry happens naturally, so does getting sick. Restaurants and healthcare companies are needed to address each need. The incentives are the same.
Re:Corn Wars by gress on Wednesday August 19, 2015 @12:33AM (#10083698)
Absolutely false.

Getting hungry again happens naturally regardless of the choice of food offered by a restaurant.

Whether you remain sick, are cured, or get sick again depends significantly on the choice of treatment offered. Healthcare companies have an incentive to choose treatments that don't cure you.

Re:Corn Wars by xacaxulu on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @08:53PM (#10083123)
I'm not afraid of a profit motive, I'm afraid of moral hazard à la subprime mortgage backed securities.
Re:Corn Wars by puppetmaster3 on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @11:38PM (#10083561)
I call b.s on: "and couldn't be happier."

Individual humans may have other things that motivate.

Re:Corn Wars by Synaesthesia on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @05:42PM (#10082413)
We don't need protection of these to help the world food security, the research could be publicly funded (and a lot of it is already) and publicly distributed. Of course then nobody makes a profit off owning the seed but that's not really necessary. It could just benefit everyone.
Re:Corn Wars by Obi_Juan_Kenobi on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @06:46PM (#10082711)
> the research could be publicly funded (and a lot of it is already)

I can say with absolute certainty that this is not the case. Funding is available for basic science only; the very difficult work of bringing genetics to market is simply not funded. Funding for research into e.g. drought resistance is limited to understanding genetic pathways. The closest you get to useful traits is QTL analysis. Make no mistake, this is very useful, foundational research. It enables a variety of approaches to creating new crops. It does not, however, create them.

Public funds should be used in this way. We should bring back seed banks, co-ops, and fund grants that actually aim to bring marketable traits to useful inbreds. I'd love to be able to point to GM intra-poaceae drought-tolerant corn and say, "this is what transgenics are capable of!" That's not the reality, though.

Re:Corn Wars by agavegoose on Wednesday August 19, 2015 @12:45AM (#10083722)
This is also not true. There is public funding going into creating new biotech varieties and publicly distributing them. Last year, for example, Arkansas released its first public roundup ready soybean (http://arkansasagnews.uark.edu/8273.htm). Sadly though these researchers had to wait for the patent to expire.
Re:Corn Wars by throwawaykf05 on Wednesday August 19, 2015 @05:45AM (#10084474)
If they had to wait for the patent to expire, how is this a "new" variety?
Re:Corn Wars by agavegoose on Sunday August 23, 2015 @04:04PM (#10106581)
The variety is "new" as it comes from the insertion of the rr1 gene into the University of Arkansas public breeding line as opposed to the lines used by Stine, etc. in the private sector.
Re:Corn Wars by throwawaykf05 on Monday August 24, 2015 @01:47PM (#10111663)
But presumably the significant gene of interest was the "roundup" gene (for lack of a better term) that provided the glyphosate resistance, no? Wouldn't that be the gene that is covered by the patent and the one that really matters? Is the rr1 gene related somehow?
Re:Corn Wars by e40 on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @05:33PM (#10082358)
these companies are burning incredible amounts of money (and talent) to fuel R&D engines that are literally keeping humans alive.

And, according to another FPP today[1], they're bilking us for a lot of these "wonder" drugs.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10080680

Re:Corn Wars by refurb on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @10:42PM (#10083435)
You're confusing clinical trials with FDA approved drugs. The FDA already has regulations in place to prevent the kind of abuse of statistics seen in that thread.
Re:Corn Wars by afarrell on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @07:03PM (#10082779)
We don't have to imagine it. In the 1940s, Germany launched a war to take control of vast amounts of agricultural land and starve or explicitly mass-murder its inhabitants. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan

John Green has a good video on this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H-2q-QMUIgY

Re:Corn Wars by gech on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @10:03PM (#10083335)
What if they lobby against better, safer solutions developed in the future because it affects their bottom line?
Re:Corn Wars by pyre on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @07:34PM (#10082882)
Well, you also don't feed people hamburgers, steak, and bacon for every meal either if your goal is to "feed the world" and "keep humans alive." That doesn't stop people from doubling down on meat at every meal.
Re:Corn Wars by tremendo on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @07:37PM (#10082893)
> propose a feasible solution for how we're going to keep pace with a ballooning world population.

Only half joking: By not feeding the ballooning of the world's population. Population growth was sustainable for most of history, then we eliminated scarcity and, well, we've yet to learn to control our growth in this context of resource abundance.

Re:Corn Wars by dragonwriter on Tuesday August 18, 2015 @08:00PM (#10082951)
> we've yet to learn to control our growth in this context of resource abundance.

Untrue. Most of the parts of the world with the most resource abundance have very low or negative natural growth rates, with the overall growth in those areas driven by immigration from places with less abundance rather than natural increase, and we have very good information that strong social support networks promote reduced rates of natural population growth. We know quite well how to control growth in the context of resource abundance.

Re:Corn Wars by tremendo on Wednesday August 19, 2015 @01:52PM (#10087240)
You make a good point. What prompted my comment was remembering when we were hitting the 3B mark and there were dire predictions, some efforts to curb population growth worked, a few too well (Japan, Europe). But thanks to the green revolution, and that not everyone made those same efforts, we are now more than double that with no sign of slowing down. In any case, point taken.
Re:Corn Wars by dllthomas on Wednesday August 19, 2015 @03:05AM (#10084045)
At least, population growth. Our waistlines may be another matter...