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Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by reasonattlm on Sunday August 09, 2015 @07:33PM (#10031948)
The real takeaway from this research is that AMPK manipulation in the manner demonstrated here is categorically not an exercise mimetic because it does nothing in healthy individuals. A real exercise mimetic would extend median life span, since that's what exercise does in mice.

Other strategies that end up showing altered AMPK levels along the way have been shown to extend life and improve health in laboratory species. It is very complex, and researchers are very far from understanding how even very reliable and straightforward ways of slowing aging work. E.g. calorie restriction. Studied for a century, no comprehensive explanation of how it works yet.

This, along with tiny beneficial effects, is the reason we should largely ignore all of these efforts to throw drugs at metabolism in the hopes of lengthening healthspan. It is a grand waste of time, because even if wondrously successful the best you could hope for in the next few decades is something that is outperformed by actually exercising or practicing calorie restriction.

What a waste of billions of dollars that will be. Yet that's what is going to happen, judging by the willingness to fund this sort of work. It is like the research and development community has learned nothing from the outcome of fifteen years of sirtuin research.

If we want to see radical life extension in our lifetimes, it is going to come from SENS and the like, deliberate targeted efforts to repair specific aspects of biochemical damage that cause cell and tissue dysfunction. Not random drugs mined from the natural world, but elegantly engineered biotechnologies that do exactly what they are intended to do. You might look at allotopic expression of mitochondrial DNA for example, as developed by Gensight at the moment ( http://www.gensight-biologics.com/ ). The problem is identified, and a precise fix applied to cells via gene therapy to make exactly the problem and only the problem go away.

That is the future of medicine. Yet the regulations and inertia behind the old drug development pipeline is very resistant to change. We'd better hope that the disruption represented by Gensight and other similar efforts takes hold, because we're going to age and suffer just like our parents and on pretty much the same schedule if it doesn't.

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by gnoway on Sunday August 09, 2015 @08:16PM (#10032052)
This is kind of a straw man, isn't it? I realize the article leads with "exercise in a pill," but it's really about a compound that might help treat obesity and type 2 diabetes. Effect on lifespan/healthspan is only implied (via treatment of disease).

Edit: you might also want to be a little more up-front about your apparent involvement with alternative avenues of research.

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by reasonattlm on Sunday August 09, 2015 @09:22PM (#10032227)
It leads with exercise in a pill because AMPK manipulation is broadly expected to be a path towards an exercise mimetic. Go do some background reading on AMPK and related proteins and pathways and their effects on longevity and health in lower animals.

What I find annoying about this reporting is that it is being spun as a success when by all measures it is a failure. It is a failure in exactly the same way sirtuin research was a failure, in that it only appears to produce benefits in metabolically abnormal individuals, and even then they are not high quality benefits. Meaning it isn't at all what was aimed for: the researchers have failed in even their original modest goals of slightly slowing aging by recapitulating the broad effects of exercise.

Of course you can still make a profit selling very marginal treatments for type 2 diabetes to people who have that condition because they are obese and thus metabolically abnormal. This is a condition that can actually be reversed right up until very late stages by dietary restriction ( http://dx.doi.org/10.2337/db11-1835, http://www.bbc.com/news/health-13887909 ), for all that few people appear to either know or be willing to act on that knowledge. The sort of therapies that might result from AMPK manipulation would be terrible in comparison to the outcome of just eating less. But that has nothing to do with making real progress in medicine.

Medical research in general is so very vulnerable to disruption: you have entrenched groups producing terrible products at massive cost under heavy regulation in the midst of a revolution in the underlying technologies and plummeting costs of creating new knowledge and therapies. Something has to give.

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by simplexion on Monday August 10, 2015 @12:45AM (#10032701)
What does "treat obesity" even mean? Obesity is a self-inflicted issue. Consuming more calories than you burn is all it is. Nothing more. Obese people need to have their food intake restricted. There is nothing to treat.
Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by gnoway on Monday August 10, 2015 @01:40AM (#10032813)
Well, I wrote 'help treat obesity'. There are existing drugs used alongside diet, exercise, counseling, etc. to help treat obesity, and this compound could potentially be an alternative to those.

It's also not certain that obesity is self-inflicted 100% of the time. Google 'obesity microbiome' and you will find research showing particular gut flora which triggers obesity in mice. Consider that e.g. gut flora are often transferred from mother to child, and that in general the bacteria in your gut have to come from somewhere.

Regardless, there's no reason to deny an avenue of assistance to an obese person who wants to lose weight. Simply asserting that they need to stop eating so much is very similar to asserting that an an addict (which is what this actually is, IMO) should just consume less. It usually doesn't work, we know it usually doesn't work, and continuing to just assert that it's that simple is, at best, ignorant.

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by simplexion on Monday August 10, 2015 @01:57AM (#10032866)
It is self-inflicted. Does this magical "obesity microbiome" ignore physics and make you fatter without energy going in?
Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by TJSomething on Monday August 10, 2015 @04:20AM (#10033321)
No, but "An obesity-associated gut microbiome with increased capacity for energy harvest" by Turnbaugh, et al. (which has been cited over 2,000 times) shows that it decreases energy going out in feces.
Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by DiabloD3 on Monday August 10, 2015 @02:16AM (#10032933)
Although I don't agree with you, the way you put this is unnecessarily antagonistic.

I'm 6 foot tall, I used to weigh, at peak, 340 pounds. After exactly one year of diet modification alone (I chronically under-exercise), I weighed 214 pounds, and now weigh about 190.

I did not reduce my caloric intake, instead I removed all foods that are known to screw with human biology, and decided to follow the Paleo diet: no grains (pasta, bread, cereal, corn, etc), no legumes (peanuts, peas, beans, soy, etc), no seed oils (vegetable oil, corn, canola, soy), no refined sugars, no dairy (to reduce hormone and lactose intake; I limit myself to small amounts cheese and full fat greek yogurt only).

What I do eat? Meat, vegetables, fruits, the aforementioned limited fermented dairy, mushrooms, and if I weren't allergic to them, I could add nuts to that list as well. I use healthy fats like bacon fat, coconut oil, and olive oil instead of seed oils. I also limit myself to one cup of coffee a day, and sometimes even then I don't feel like one, I don't really need it anymore.

My caloric intake has not really changed (it has always been between 1500 and 2000 a day), yet the fat just melted right off. The whole obsession with caloric intake (unless you're clearing 3000 calories with low physical activity) doesn't fix obesity: chronically low caloric intake (below 1500 calories for an extended period) makes your body think it's starving to death, and it will refuse to release energy from your fat cells and start hoarding it instead.

In other words, unsafe caloric reduction for long periods may cause weight gain in some individuals already suffering from some form of metabolic disorder (including prediabetes and diabetes and just being morbidly obese).

Yes, I agree there is nothing to really treat: eat foods that promote the proper functioning of your body, drop the ones that are known to cause chronic inflammation, metabolic disorders, and with grains in particular, the fact they contain phytates and protease inhibitors in very unsafe amounts (both cause malabsorption of nutrients).

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by jschwartzi on Monday August 10, 2015 @03:37AM (#10033173)
Did you rigorously log your caloric intake before and after your diet changed? If not, there's not enough data to conclusively state that your switch to Paleo was anything other than a simple calorie restriction.
Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by Ueland on Monday August 10, 2015 @02:37AM (#10033005)
This kind of post is something i usually read at Reddit when something related to fat people are being discussed. And of course, many of them appear to have "a metabolic disorder". A post with a whole bunch of undocumented claims is something i do not expect here at HN.

You lost weight, therefore you either reduced calorie intake, or you burned more calories. If you somehow broke the laws regarding energy, you have discovered some magic formula that will make you rich.I am going to assume that you did not discover the magic formula as there is none as per now.

No wonder people have issues figuring out how to loose weight when they find claims like:

- "foods that are known to screw with human biology"

- "My caloric intake has not really changed, yet the fat just melted right off."

-"... caloric intake doesn't fix obesity"

- "chronically low caloric intake .. makes your body think it's starving to death"

" unsafe caloric reduction for long periods may cause weight gain in some individuals ..."

" ...foods that promote the proper functioning of your body"

".. drop the ones that are known to cause chronic inflammation, metabolic disorders"

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by mkingston on Monday August 10, 2015 @04:54AM (#10033413)
DiabloD3 almost certainly limited caloric intake at some point (at intake or somewhere in digestion). But your comment doesn't address some complexity in the way the body processes food, or in the food itself. For example, eating 200 calories of refined sugar is considerably worse in terms of your eventual absorption of energy than eating 200 calories of banana. This is at least partly because the banana consumes more energy in digestion, and partly because less of the energy in the banana will actually eventually be absorbed by your body.

Parenthetically, the banana will not generate a considerable spike in blood sugar, something that, as I understand it, is very unhealthy.

While it's not an awful rough guide, nutrition is not as simple as calories in vs. calories out. Better perhaps if you're counting the calories in your stool, but who's going to do that? (And besides, that still wouldn't be a complete solution).

Also, in case you're reading this DiabloD3, congratulations. A drastic and I'm sure extremely challenging lifestyle change. I'm happy to hear about such a success story.

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by DiabloD3 on Monday August 10, 2015 @09:46AM (#10034503)
See, there lies a small problem: I can't measure caloric burn usefully. I can measure what little exercise I do, I can measure a rough amount of what it costs to merely be alive, but I can't measure beyond simple observations like that (I imagine such things can be measured, it is just invasive and expensive).

Intake really hasn't changed, I ate 1500-2000 calories a day then, I eat 1500-2000 calories a day now. I didn't log it, but I did a lot of rough estimates based on things I regularly ate then, and regularly ate now. The only difference I've found is I feel like I'm eating more food now than I did then; but it's because carb-rich food is rather energy compact.

Also, thanks. I only tell my story when someone has gone off the rails quoting the FDA party line of "caloric intake is 100% why you're fat", when it's a massively complex issue; and even with my lengthy reply, I feel I did a disservice in how complex the issue is.

I tried reducing caloric intake, eating lots of "whole grains", limiting meat intake, all the stuff the FDA has recommended for decades: I only kept getting fatter. Caloric intake alone cannot explain why the world is getting fatter: what we're eating clearly does when my diet has worked for so many people, me included.

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by LinuxBender on Monday August 10, 2015 @11:40AM (#10035297)
I broke the laws of energy. Ok, not really. I was gaining weight because I was starving my body of nutrients, so it was storing everything as fat. I stopped eating crap and started drinking health shakes several times a day and started taking multi-vitamins. I have increased my caloric intake and have been steadily losing weight for two years now. It is not a diet, but a permanent lifestyle change. I feel better and have more energy. I don't log things in a scientific manor, but I don't really need to. My reduction in weight and increase in energy is all I need.
Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by Abraln on Monday August 10, 2015 @01:23AM (#10032773)
Agreed. The ethical implications of this also need to be considered. As much as I hate the "think of the starving children in ___" trope, artificially increasing your matabolism is increasing the amount of calories humanity needs to produce, and if use becomes widespread, could add up to a significant amount.
Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by fasteo on Monday August 10, 2015 @01:36AM (#10032802)
>>>> Obesity is a self-inflicted issue.Consuming more calories than you burn is all it is.

- Why is this restaurant always full of people ?

- Because there are more people entering the exiting.

Really ? Maybe it has to do with the food quality, price, customer care, the location of the place, etc, etc.

See, explaining obesity with the simple calories-in, calories-out argument tell nothing about the root cause of this disease.

Take a look at Dr. Guyenet blog[1] for a fascinating view of this issue.

[1] http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by simplexion on Monday August 10, 2015 @01:51AM (#10032852)
Stop calling it a disease. It gives obese people an excuse.
Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by fasteo on Monday August 10, 2015 @04:18AM (#10033312)
>>>> Stop calling it a disease

Let me decide when I stop calling things.

>>>> It gives obese people an excuse.

Over-simplification of a complex issue.

I have never been obese. I am 45 years old in a couple of days and I can see my abs. Unfortunately, I have a genetic defect that affects my metabolism, giving me a intermittent and profound fatigue every now and then. After reading, thinking and talking to dozens of doctors about the whole metabolic process, I have come to the conclusion that obesity is indeed a disease.

In the same way, when fatigue kicks-in, I just cannot avoid being tired: I am not lazy, I exercise every day, I eat clean and sleep 7-8 hours every single night but I just cannot avoid being tired. For casual observers, they will think that I am a lazy, but the truth is quite different. This same analogy applies to obesity.

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by singulaire on Sunday August 09, 2015 @09:47PM (#10032284)
If the function of the pill is solely to mimic exercise, then it does not offer any new treatment. Obesity and diabetes can be treated just as well right now, and the treatment is exercise.
Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by vinceguidry on Sunday August 09, 2015 @11:52PM (#10032558)
Obesity and diabetes are not treated with exercise, they're treated with diet. Exercise helps, but neither condition responds to exercise alone.
Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by Dylan16807 on Sunday August 09, 2015 @10:17PM (#10032343)
Or, or, hear me out here: what if you took the pill and exercised?

There's only so many hours in the day. If a pill could perfectly mimic sleep, would you not take some?

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by skybrian on Sunday August 09, 2015 @08:08PM (#10032032)
> "the best you could hope for in the next few decades is something that is outperformed by actually exercising or practicing calorie restriction"

That would still be a monumental achievement (probably in the billions of dollars range) if a practical treatment came out of it. Most health costs don't come from healthy people, after all. A lot of people don't exercise and very few people practice calorie restriction.

But if there is other research that would work better, then the opportunity cost is high too.

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by ItsMattyG on Sunday August 09, 2015 @11:29PM (#10032505)
There are far far more people willing to take a pill then exercise or caloric restrict. If this allows those people to survive long enough for more radical form of life extension, it could save many, many lives.
Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by sebastianavina on Sunday August 09, 2015 @11:38PM (#10032528)
they will mix those pills with red bull and vodka at night clibs
Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by bengarvey on Sunday August 09, 2015 @08:50PM (#10032161)
"by actually exercising or practicing calorie restriction"

Ever study I've read about has shown that while calorie restriction works in mice, it has no effect in humans.

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by crusso on Sunday August 09, 2015 @09:27PM (#10032243)
Actually, calorie restriction has shown to provide life extension in every species tried so far except for one highly over-referenced rhesus monkey study that were contradicted by a later study[1]. Human study results are much more difficult to obtain due to our average life span lengths.

Also there was a recent article that made it to the front page of HN talking about a positive study of intermittent fasting's longetivity-related benefits - which is probably a closely related or identical phenomenon (my guess).

[1] http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140401/ncomms4557/full/nco...

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by abrichr on Sunday August 09, 2015 @11:12PM (#10032473)
From [1]:

To our knowledge, only one study investigated the effects of long-term CR (with a diet of reasonable quality) on health and longevity in nonobese humans and a control group (24). This study was conducted in 120 men, of whom 60 were randomly assigned to the control group and 60 to the calorie-restricted group. The control group was fed ≈9600 kJ/d. Calorie-restricted subjects received 1 L milk and 500 g fruit every other day, which led to an overall mean energy intake of ≈6300 kJ/d (or a 35% restriction from the intake of the control group). This regimen was implemented for 3 y. Stunkard (25) reanalyzed these data and reported less time in the infirmary (123 compared with 219 d) and a nonsignificant difference in the death rate (6 compared with 13 deaths) in calorie-restricted subjects than in control subjects, respectively, which suggests that chronic CR may prolong life span in humans.

[1] http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/361.full

Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by intrasight on Sunday August 09, 2015 @11:49PM (#10032551)
>has no effect in humans This is true in practice for most people. "Calorie restriction" is a misnomer. It should be called "calorie unavailability". Research has show that if the food is there in your fridge but you choose not to eat it, you don't get any benefits. The body and mind have to believe it is starving.
Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by sleeping_pills on Monday August 10, 2015 @04:33AM (#10033354)
That's very interesting actually. Do you have any links/references for this research?
Re:Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ ... by gwern on Sunday August 09, 2015 @09:51PM (#10032294)
> it has no effect in humans.

It certainly has documented effects on weight, blood pressure, insulin, etc. What you mean to say is that while it's been amply proven in lower species to extend lifespan, lifespan extension has not been proven in humans as of now.