bahlhala
>No thanks. You are free to travel though.
I am referring to large organisations having hiring policies that encourage or force more diverse hiring.. immersion in a more diverse workplace (but still representative of the area you live in)
>> if our daughters dont see their mothers working in IT
>Honestly I think the situation got worse for women in the last 10 years. Through expectations placed upon them by others and themselves. Formerly it was a rarity but few really noticed it. Now their actions would be put under more scrutiny. Here bias does indeed play a role and some discussion emphasized that it apparently isn't normal for women to be in IT.
So its bad but we wont bother trying to do anything about it?
>> we just have to kind of force a more diverse group
>I fundamentally disagree that anybody needs to be forced. Freedom of association and that thing... Plus, that already happened countless times before and it will happen again.
You totally have the freedom not to work at IBM though? whats your problem, just find somewhere that doesn't have and diversity policies, is roaring sausage fest then dive right in and never look back!
its not like any of this really restricts white males, its just some companies saying that's not what they want so there is an extra value to hiring something other than a white male.
You cannot persecute those with huge advantages, that's not persecution that's more like regression to the mean. calling it persecution is kind of embarrassing imho. i'm a big boy i can handle that someone who is less skilled of experienced but has a different perspective could be a better investment for an organisation - after all its possible to gain skills and experience.
and i have not seen a single alternative posted by anyone here, so all the argumnts against seem rather hollow and just self serving. blocking making playing field fairer as you wont be the one to benefit from the increased fairness.
I also think that people are missing the point that the entire work environment is tuned to a specific group of people.. which is not healthy.
that specific group of people are not going to actively de-tune their environment for potential future hires that they dont even have metrics to measure how tuned they are.
the only solution i can see is to get those other people in, see what need changing, change that.. wait a full generation and re-evaluate.
How do propose getting more diversity without some kind of support or appreciation of the value of the under represented? and to those thinking of themselves before the wider picture this will always seem "unfair".
If you were watching over some kids and you had not noticed but for an hour one kid had been bullying other kids to achieve a huge lead over them in the game they were playing. so you step and stop the bullying.. great. but where is the incentive for the other kids to keep playing together if the historical effects of the bullying are not addressed?
I may just be racist or sexist though.. however i dont know why i would give a shit if that was the case?
as i said elswhere in comments - i saw my dad being respected for an ability to do stuff with his computer (computers were not generally used in offices etc. at the time). my childs mind wanted to get some of that respect.. so i invested time learning and playing with computers.
I saw white dudes on tv doing everything - they were all the good guys (and even most of the bad guys) i grew up thinking i could do anything. i would love to be able to say the same for my daughter.
Our parents did similar things, we eat similar foods, we grew up in similar houses.. I find it easier to predict their moods and behaviours etc.. cos they are like me.
However, that doesn't mean to say we are in any way right or better than any one else.
When i work with people who are different to me it often makes me feel somewhat outside of my comfort zone (not in any kind of major way - just like getting a new pair of slippers or something, it feels a little different to yesterday).
I just think we cannot help this at all.. so when i am asked to visualise a new start before they join.. who do i imagine, well mostly someone like me. i mean i have all sorts of practices techniques to mitigate this, but its inherently true, true of all people imho.
So we have lots of jobs and areas that are thick with white men.. everything is tailored to what their needs are. start times, lengths of holidays and breaks, how long is taken for parental leave after a child is born, even the temperature of most offices is tuned to middle aged white men.
We (white men) dont know what an inclusive environment is.. no single group of people does. so really we have to go for immersion therapy (or fake it till you make it).. we just have to kind of force a more diverse group of people into these roles and see what happens.. all the time trying to be respectful and accommodating.
I wanted to work with computers as it was something I saw my dad doing it when i was very young (its not this simple but it almost is).. if our daughters dont see their mothers working in IT why would they put any effort into learning it?
Its a chicken and egg scenario to a certain extent and this is basically the only route in we have to change the feedback loop imho. if someone comes up with another idea i am all ears.
I can see that it is annoying but I don't get the hostility around this stuff. are there many thousands of white males not able to get a job... probably not (at least not due to this).
How else are we meant to have more diverse teams if we don't hire diversely? Personally I would take a theoretical 20% hit in productivity as part of male dominated environment to learn what a more diverse environment should look like.
Having this density of basically white men is often pretty toxic imho (fyi i am a white male) I see so many "harmless" jokes made by people who literally don't have enough experience to be respectful outside of their gender and race.
It also makes me sad that people say "its fine look we have Susan" or whatever.. no, Susan has learned to put up with your bullshit and keep her mouth closed.. and if you think "hey I put up with bullshit too" then that only means you agree your environment is toxic and no amount of white males is fixing it.