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Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by s_q_b on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @01:04PM (#9930872)
The more I consider the ramifications of these news reports, the more I realize we need full decentralization and total encryption.

We have the tech: Strong encryption, Tor-like relays, and the blockchain. What we need is a way to make services based on these technologies not just as easy to use but easier to use for the average Jane.

If the internet as we know it is to survive, we have to crack this nut.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by JoshTriplett on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @02:43PM (#9931491)
That's necessary, but not sufficient. We need both sane policies and technical measures to ensure that nothing less than those policies is possible. If we only have the technology, policy-makers can and will make life difficult both for the users and makers of these technologies; more draconian regimes will simply never allow those technologies to take root to begin with.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by makmanalp on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @03:38PM (#9931793)
I think this needs to be expressed more often. Not only will draconian regimes now allow it, but it's also harder to protect such systems at the ends. I saw a presentation by cperciva at some point that talked about the "Three B's": Bribery, Burglary and Blackmail. So tech should be one of many tools to combat oppressive societal structure - some other ones being more social and legal tools.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by cperciva on Thursday July 23, 2015 @10:30PM (#9939817)
The concept of the "three Bs" has been around for longer than I have. In my talk ("everything you need to know about cryptography in one hour") I added a fourth B, "guantanamo Bay", aka. torture.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by hueving on Monday August 03, 2015 @02:22PM (#9998519)
guantanamo bay is pretty lame in comparison to what other oppressive regimes will do.

I would suggest changing it to something more direct like "Breaking kneecaps" or something along those lines.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by enraged_camel on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @04:38PM (#9932154)
Either that, or they will simply intimidate and even torture people for their private keys.

May sound far-fetched, but it isn't.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by pigeons on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @06:07PM (#9932693)
Force them to intimidate and torture at least one side of every communication they want, instead of letting them intimidate and torture three or four centralized service operators to get everybody's communication.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by mirimir on Thursday July 23, 2015 @04:49AM (#9934644)
Far-fetched?

Not in the UK, for example.

> The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA), Part III, activated by ministerial order in October 2007,[20] requires persons to supply decrypted information and/or keys to government representatives with a court order. Failure to disclose carries a maximum penalty of two years in jail. The provision was first used against animal rights activists in November 2007,[21] and at least three people have been prosecuted and convicted for refusing to surrender their encryption keys,[22] one of whom was sentenced to 13 months' imprisonment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_King...

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by rowofpixels on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @06:26PM (#9932788)
Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/538/
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by davidgerard on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @05:30PM (#9932436)
And you were doing so well until you said "the blockchain".

(The singular with a "the" means the Bitcoin blockchain, which is increasingly centralised under a decreasing number of Chinese mining pools. And this is apart from the stupendous list of problems with literally every single aspect of Bitcoin. It may not be a great idea to pin any of our hopes on the digital Cue::Cat.)

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by superobserver on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @06:15PM (#9932733)
Glad someone already said what I was going to say about the Blockchain tech. There's no security in that, especially given the feudal nature of the bitcoin market (now and going forward).
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by davidgerard on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @06:24PM (#9932777)
Indeed. I forgot to add: And when the NSA is our threat model, an inviolable record of every transaction ever, that lawyers refer to as "prosecution futures", may not be the technology of choice.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by e12e on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @05:33PM (#9932455)
No, we live in a capitalist society - what is needed is a way to monetize such services that is as easy as trading in sensitive personal data behind the guise of "free" services.

Or a different social order (my favorite) - but the first problem is probably much easier to solve in a short time-frame.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by unicornporn on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @07:27PM (#9933036)
I really hope http://maidsafe.net/ doesn't end up being forever perfected and never released.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by nickpsecurity on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @05:21PM (#9932375)
We don't have the tech for two important, related things: user-friendly, trust management tools as effective as in person; key management for various, complex scenarios. These two have so many issues that even technical people screw up. I've certainly seen a lot of good work on these. Yet, we're not there yet and getting there is worth a ton of effort by anyone who will try.

We get that, then we might integrate it with our existing technologies to implement and use it. Need the foundation first, though.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by jobeirne on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @06:42PM (#9932843)
Seen keybase.io? I think that's one of the best stabs in this direction I've seen so far.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by nickpsecurity on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @07:43PM (#9933101)
It looks better than manual GPG but not quite there yet for majority acceptance. Need a lot more work on visual alternatives to this sort of thing. Whatever is mass market will be easy for them to mentally visualize and connect dots. Implies the solution will likely be visual (eg GUI).
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by SEJeff on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @01:12PM (#9930913)
More security, more usability.

Pick one. That is why we are in the mess we are in

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by s_q_b on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @01:21PM (#9930965)
I refuse to believe we cannot have both.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by pjc50 on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @01:32PM (#9931039)
Security must, by its very nature, prevent you from doing insecure things. This manifests as an obstacle to users, so they end up choosing the insecure route (writing down passwords etc etc).

Decentralised systems tend to lose to centralised ones because there's no money locus for advertising, development or curation.

It's not totally doomed; the popularity of Snapchat suggests there is demand for services that don't make everything saved and visible forever.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by ethbro on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @02:38PM (#9931457)
> Security must, by its very nature, prevent you from doing insecure things.

Disagree. In practice security as a guarantee must do so (e.g. the OpenBSD opinion), but security as a gradient need not (e.g. the web opinion).

If Browser X defaults to the TLS version of a page regardless of what the user requested, but gracefully falls back to the unsecured page without action but with a yellow banner across the URL, does this not increase user security without preventing them from doing insecure things?

The objective is not perfect security but rather increased herd security.

If the minimum security threshold (specifically with respect to encryption) is raised, then we all benefit. Decentralized vs centralized and the feasibility of each are an argument for farther down the road (as long as we don't lock ourselves into one or the other). There's much lower-hanging fruit!

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by geofft on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @03:17PM (#9931695)
This conflates "security" in the sense of requirements and "security" in the sense of technology. Users already have security requirements; security technology ought to be enabling them.

For instance, encryption lets me back up files to cloud services that I don't trust. Without the technology of encryption, my security requirement would have me not backing up files at all. I wouldn't just decide "oh, whatever" and back up unencrypted files.

SSL lets me access my bank safely (enough) from a coffeeshop wifi connection. Without SSL, I'd walk into a physical bank or ATM. I wouldn't decide "probably nobody's trying to hack me" and connect to my bank in cleartext.

Bad technologies manifest as an obstacle to users, yes. But passwords are pretty much the epitome of bad technology in the security field. (It's a legitimately hard problem, so I'm not claiming that people should be doing other things, but we also shouldn't let ourselves think that passwords are good.)

SSL, for all that the implementation sucked and still sucks, enabled the e-commerce revolution of the mid-'90s.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by MichaelGG on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @03:38PM (#9931794)
>encryption lets me back up files to cloud services that I don't trust

Any recommendation on an accessible, audited, client for Windows users? Running some company's random binary, especially when you log in and they can identify you, implies a fair amount of trust. Tarsnap's the best one I know of and it's not really accessible for most users.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by simoncion on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @05:26PM (#9932406)
Not sure what you mean by "accessible", so I'll go from easiest to least easy:

Truecrypt has been audited, works on Windows, and appears to offer an encrypted file container that you can attach to a Windows drive letter.

What you could do is create the container, let DropBox (or whatever) sync the file containing the container, then perform your file operations within the container.

Depending on your needs, there's also GPG4Win, which comes recommended by the GPG project maintainers. AFAIK, GPG hasn't been subject to an extensive audit, but it is venerable, open source, and developed in the open. (Yeah, so was OpenSSL, I know. ;) )

I don't know that there's a way to make a transparently encrypted container with GPG as there is in TrueCrypt, so I suspect that you'd have to:

* Copy your encrypted files

* Decrypt them

* Edit them

* Reencrypt them

* Copy them to the sync directory.

Sounds like a bit of work to me.

If you were on Linux, you could probably use dm-crypt on a loop device, and just sync the underlying encrypted file, but -again-, I have no idea how much auditing has been done on the underlying code (and this fails your "for Windows users" requirement).

Oh, BTW, I replied to our Erlang thread. If you're interested in taking a second look at Erlang, I link to a few things in the comment that might be interesting to you.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by MichaelGG on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @06:45PM (#9932851)
Dropbox isn't audited. They have a poor track record for security (lying about internal access then trying to downplay). So even if you encrypt with truecrypt, you're running the Dropbox binary for uploading, and it can do anything - in short, you're trusting them.

I've not found an open source tool that does block level backups with diff/compression support. Getting the client experience right is hard and not a whole lot of fun, so I'm guessing there's little incentive for companies to open source that valuable part.

Thanks for the info on Erlang.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by pjc50 on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @07:05PM (#9932944)
I keep a list of cloud sync solutions I've looked at for a similar use case: https://github.com/pjc50/pjc50.github.io/blob/master/secure-...

I'm still not quite satisfied either.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by simoncion on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @07:21PM (#9933013)
Oh! You were looking for audited sync clients.

Yeah, I've got nothing there.

Edit: I would ask "How hard could it be to solve 90% of the problem?", but various BigCos have had spectacular failures in recent memory, so I guess the problem is pretty damn hard.

I wonder how terrible using git as the backbone for one's sync software would be.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by pjc50 on Thursday July 23, 2015 @03:03AM (#9934380)
There's git-annex for that. I've not tried it myself.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by simoncion on Sunday July 26, 2015 @12:03AM (#9950103)
I had heard about git-annex before, but never had looked into it. This sounds pretty neat! I wonder what its horrifying data-eating failure modes are! :D
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by admax88q on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @02:46PM (#9931507)
Writing down passwords is not insecure.

Better to have a written down strong password than an easy to remember password not written down.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by xamuel on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @05:16PM (#9932348)
Passwords could easily be both strong and memorable if we got rid of ridiculous anti-secure constraints like "password must be at most length X", "password cannot contain a space", etc.

I've heard somewhere of military organizations having people trained to go in an office and search the places people "hide" their password sticky-notes...

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by TilJ on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @01:47PM (#9931140)
You're referring to the limitations imposed by security as a spectrum versus usability (more secure to more usable). I don't think many people consider a lack of privacy to be a "feature" in the usability sense -- that's typically desirable by 3rd parties, not the users.

I do agree with your profit motive. I consider that a potential opportunity rather than a problem.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by higherpurpose on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @02:09PM (#9931293)
Blockchain-based decentralization looks somewhat easier to monetize.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by davidgerard on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @05:33PM (#9932459)
What we see in practice with all extant implementations of blockchains is increasing centralisation. Because computing hashes is the sort of computation whose efficiency per watt greatly increases with more and more specialised hardware. Thus the Bitcoin situation, where the promise of everyone being able to mine a few coins has become a small number of Chinese mining pools; altcoins do no better.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by undefined0 on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @06:44PM (#9932848)
> altcoins do no better.

Most altcoins are Proof of Stake, where mining via computing hashes doesn't take place. "Blockchains" isn't limited to Proof of Work, you can even get non-PoS/PoW blockchains such as Hyperledger.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by drdeca on Thursday July 23, 2015 @01:20AM (#9934118)
Wait, most?

Do you mean most that aren't autogenerated ones that stop being mined a few months in, or do you mean to include those?

I'm a bit surprised about "most" but if you mean "most that do something" then I could believe that, but I am still surprised.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by davidgerard on Thursday July 23, 2015 @03:31AM (#9934456)
I thought "most" altcoins were simple Bitcoin or Litecoin clones with changed parameters. What sort of numbers are you estimating "most" from?
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by popee on Thursday July 23, 2015 @03:43AM (#9934482)
> Decentralised systems tend to lose to centralised ones because there's no money locus for advertising, development or curation.

Yeah, e-mail systems lost :-) Anyway, corporate monopols are problem, not systems.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by habitue on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @03:14PM (#9931683)
Total security is not having a computer, or having it off all the time. So in the limit, they must interfere. What you're saying is you refuse to believe we cannot have an acceptable compromise. That I think is reasonable.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by SEJeff on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @03:31PM (#9931758)
Not sure if you've ever heard of Bruce Schneier, but he is regarded by many as the father of modern cryptography. He also happens to know a thing or two about security, and frequently testifies to the US government such as the Senate on cybersecurity related matters.

Here are a few of his thoughts on the matter:

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/02/balancing_sec...

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/08/security_vs_u...

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/09/unauthenticat...

Schenier's own words: """ Designing systems for usability is hard, especially when security is involved. Almost by definition, making something secure makes it less usable. """

Feel free to disagree with one of the leading experts in the field, but I doubt you'll end up right.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by dpeck on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @04:13PM (#9931995)
|he is regarded by many as the father of modern cryptography

No, he both isn't that and isn't regarded as that either.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by spacemanmatt on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @07:34PM (#9933065)
Seriously. But the man is very well respected in the security industry, though.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by dpeck on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @11:55PM (#9933903)
No denying that, though sometimes I wonder why. For fun google for "bruce schenier $mammal" theres a good chance you'll find a blog post with him putting out an odd analogy.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by afarrell on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @01:30PM (#9931027)
Then we need to devote actual money to pay students to spend time teaching laypeople or varied ages/economic backgrounds/attention spans how to send secure messages. Or we need some other way to build up a bunch of people who care about and have the skills to resolve that tradeoff.
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by drzaiusapelord on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @02:03PM (#9931246)
>I refuse to believe we cannot have both.

Define security. Not too long ago it was considered "rude" to have a not world-readable home directory on a unix server.

Today, "everyone" is worried about SIGINT by nation states. Meanwhile, there's little talk about things that can actually protect you from criminals like why is code written so shittily in general and why aren't we using a Rust-like solution for internet facing applications? Why is AV useless and unable to stop well-known malware like cryptocker variants? Why are my desktop/cloud files unencrypted by default? Why phishing scammers are constantly emailing me with realistic looking fake sites? Why doesn't Microsoft have a solution to the "download invoice.pdf.exe" problem?

Yes, Obama reading my "maymays" is bothersome, but that's not what my grandma needs. She needs a better way to get online and not get infected, her identity stolen, etc. So, who gets to define priorities here? You? I'd rather lean towards protecting Grandma's than geeks obsessed with the NSA's data collection program. Morally, I see the former as more important. That's my bias and its as valid as yours. If we can't agree then who can?

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by scrollaway on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @02:07PM (#9931282)
> Yes, Obama reading my "maymays" is bothersome, but that's not what my grandma needs.

Grandma needs a phone. A lot of those problems are implicitly disappearing as a majority of tech-illiterate users are moving to mobile platforms, which are far more locked down.

> So, who gets to define priorities here? You?

Those that work on it? Why isn't that obvious? Steps towards fixing either problems are good, so those that work on them get to work on whatever the hell they want, really.

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by Zigurd on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @01:59PM (#9931220)
When Skype was secure, was it usable?
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by e12e on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @05:29PM (#9932426)
Secure how? It's always been opaque and subject to the whims of a central compaby and a centralized architecture?
Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by lewisl9029 on Thursday July 23, 2015 @04:38AM (#9934615)
It was decentralized at one point, before this happened:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3915479

Re:Snowden Meets the IETF by spacemanmatt on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @07:34PM (#9933068)
Skype was secure?