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Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by dade_ on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @11:55AM (#9923132)
Thomas Jefferson is to blame and not one mention of taxes? I would be really surprised that some research wouldn't find that many of these office parks are built outside of the borders of major cities to avoid paying taxes, or were provided incentives by neighbouring municipalities to build further out and pay lower tax. The lower cost is attractive and allows the company to operate in a big shiny building that immediately lends credibility to the company. Further, there is no mention of ample amounts of free parking. I think this article is very lacking, the for lease signs on suburban office parks across much of North America isn't really a mystery.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by api on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @12:03PM (#9923210)
You can also blame subsidies and zoning laws. Free highway and road construction counted as a massive subsidy for sprawl, and zoning laws force sprawl in many cases by outright prohibiting the location of any place of business where people live or any mixed-use development.

Excessive sprawl is not a result of pure free market activity. The 'burbs are heavily subsidized, legally encouraged, and heavily regulated. My personal hypothesis is that the 'burbs served (intentionally or not) as a massive post-WWII work project to employ vast numbers of people in construction and real estate.

(Not necessarily a free market fundamentalist ideologue, but this is one thing you can't blame on them.)

I do agree with the article to a point though. America certainly has a nostalgic preoccupation with agrarian and rural life that has been used to sell the faux-ruralism pastiche of suburbia. It's a contributing factor in that it makes these ridiculous wastelands marketable.

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by toomuchtodo on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @12:16PM (#9923326)
I agree with part of your post, but not all of it. Subsidies and zoning laws? Definitely. Suburban land was cheap, automobiles and fuel were cheap, hence Suburbia. The post-war US economy was booming, so you had families with higher-than-now purchasing power.

Are people moving to cities because fuel and automobiles are more expensive compared to stagnant incomes? In some cases. It probably also helps that people value their time more (commute time/distance to services and social venues) and that there are more opportunities for work in cities than suburban and rural areas.

I am curious to see what happens with remote work; I see a big push happening right now, at least in the tech sector. Not everything can be done remotely, but if the advantages are truly great enough, companies will compete against each other to hire quality remote workers (who can live anywhere its convenient for them).

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by Semiapies on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @12:35PM (#9923497)
I look forward to this industry realizing everything doesn't have to happen in SF.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by api on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @12:50PM (#9923657)
Network effects are powerful. Silicon Valley largely runs (today) on monetizing network effects, and network effects are also why Silicon Valley is all concentrated in the Bay Area.

The primary factor is concentration of capital: it is exponentially easier to raise money in the Bay. The second is concentration of talent and peers -- early customers, beta testers, development partners.

The Internet was supposed to make place less relevant, but as far as I can tell it's had a paradoxically opposite effect. When I was younger, I didn't have such a strong sense that you must be in one of maybe ten urban areas (but preferably SF) to do anything. Today it feels a bit like things happen in one of maybe ten cities, and everywhere else doesn't exist. Americans have always joked about the "flyover country," but I've distinctly noticed a massive increase in this effect since circa 2000.

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by cyco on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @04:49PM (#9925696)
Really? I've seen the opposite. The downtowns of places like Indianpolis, Cleveland, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Charlotte, Atlanta, Nashville, etc. were underinvested wastelands not too long ago. Now a lot of young people want to live in these places. Not to mention the hipster paradises of Portland, Austin, etc.

SF, Seattle, NYC, DC, Boston, etc., are still the major magnets, but "hip" urban living isn't as confined to the coasts as it used to be IMO.

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by bkjelden on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @05:53PM (#9926127)
Those cities are becoming great places to live, but if you work in tech the opportunities in the bay area still dwarf everything else.

Some industries are very centralized in one city - tech in the bay area, finance in NYC, entertainment in LA, etc.

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by marssaxman on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @01:17PM (#9923895)
I've noticed the same thing, but interpreted it as an effect of political alienation during the Bush years. The post-9/11 freakout and series of military misadventures left me feeling like there is really no such thing as America; the America I live in consists of its high-density coastal cities and nothing more, all the rest being driven by a foreign culture I don't like or belong to.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by raverbashing on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @05:10PM (#9925840)
This

It's frankly pathetic that the so-called "biggest innovators" and people who "get the internet" feel the need to be constrained in an already crowded city.

Face to face communication is important, but there are tools to help with day to day communication

The Linux world knows much better how to deal with this then your average "Web 2.0" company

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by davidw on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @12:31PM (#9923458)
I think api's post is pretty accurate. This book has a lot more detail:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0078XGJXO/ref=as_li_tl?ie=...

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by toomuchtodo on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @12:33PM (#9923482)
I wish Hacker News would strip out affiliate codes.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by davidw on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @01:28PM (#9924012)
We're capitalists here, mostly, so people don't mind. People who are just here to spam get turfed out pretty quickly. I don't recommend stuff that I don't think is pertinent to a conversation.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by toomuchtodo on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @01:31PM (#9924050)
> We're capitalists here, mostly, so people don't mind.

I have never thought [citation required] was more necessary than with this comment.

We're technology professionals or enthusiasts primarily here.

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by ssalazar on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @02:18PM (#9924490)
Y Combinator embodies the very definition of capitalism, and they host this site. While the community seems more diverse than that, its fair to say there is a capitalist bent.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by toomuchtodo on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @04:25PM (#9925511)
> Y Combinator embodies the very definition of capitalism

Y Combinator also donates to efficient non-profits in the tech space, no strings attached. That's not traditionally capitalistic.

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by ectoplasm on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @04:31PM (#9925567)
Philanthropy is a lot harder without capitalism. "I should be the one who decides where the money I worked so hard to make gets donated." Besides, it's good advertising.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by davidw on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @02:03PM (#9924353)
I didn't mean capitalists in terms of a job - I'm a tech guy too - but in terms of being ok with capitalism and making money.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by toomuchtodo on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @02:06PM (#9924386)
> but in terms of being ok with capitalism and making money.

That's exactly what I mean as well. I'm a socialist looking to replace jobs with cheap renewable energy, software, and robotics automation. Definitely not a capitalist. To each their own.

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by davidw on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @04:46PM (#9925677)
If you prefer, you can think of the referral link as a way to redistribute some wealth from billionaire Jeff Bezos to not at all bad off, but certainly not even millionaire davidw.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by Semiapies on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @12:32PM (#9923468)
This concurs with the arguments a very liberal city planner once convinced me with. His preference for a solution, of course, was different government pressure on where people live and work, rather than my preference of less pressure, but he was convincing on the nature of the problem.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by acveilleux on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @12:39PM (#9923550)
Also as a way to racially and economically segregate the population. Office park connect to residential suburbs where little Johnny and Lisa can get good schools and other white upper middle-class friends to play with.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by astrodust on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @01:09PM (#9923825)
Nobody cares about free parking unless they have a car. Nobody cares about having a 'big shiny building' as credibility often comes from having things like a solid product, or capital in the bank.

The 1960s are over. Nobody cares about your crappy office tower in the middle of nowhere. The ones that did are retired.

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by kps on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @04:22PM (#9925489)

  > Nobody cares about having a 'big shiny building'
Apple does.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by raverbashing on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @02:44PM (#9924686)
However, fitting the amount of people you need when you're successful is a problem with town offices (especially in Europe)

Suburban office parks may have a lot of issues but it's where you can have lots of space for cheap (and sometimes you need this)

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by astrodust on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @02:57PM (#9924809)
I think a lot of people would rather work in a busy, noisy coffee shop than commute to or live in the suburbs to enjoy lots of cheap office space.

The entire social structure that produced these towers, a well-paid, conservative, culturally unambitious middle class, is imploding.

Now you have Millenials who value living and working closer to interesting coffee shops, restaurants, clubs, and bars than living in Nowhereville which has a Denny's, a Subway and a Dunkin Donuts as the only options. Plus they're so deep in student debt that buying a suburban house or leasing a car is not an option. They're stuck living in a cheap apartment that's typically in an urban area and living a more thrifty lifestyle. What little money they have goes towards entertainment and social activities.

I'd rather work in a condemned office in the right location than some suburban hellhole where I had to drive a minimum of a half hour to and from work. At least the office in the right location could be renovated and spruced up. The suburban office will always be in the wrong spot.

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by raverbashing on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @03:20PM (#9924994)
I'm not disagreeing with you, but being able to work in a noisy coffee shop is an entitlement that not all are able to

This is only possible for "knowledge workers".

- You can't do this, for example, if you're a doctor/nurse

- You can't do this if your job has a high level of secrecy required (that is, no peering eyes)

- You can't do that if you require special equipment to do your job (think lab or shop). You can't take your big screen Mac with your fancy Wacom tablet there as well

Also most work requires a collaboration level that's still not supported by infrastructure. It is possible but the companies haven't adapted

Not to mention, remote work gets old. Quickly

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by astrodust on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @04:21PM (#9925475)
Oh, it does, but those traditional jobs, doctor, factory worker, they're harder and harder to get. The bulk of the jobs are less dependent on those factors.

What's left? The sorts of jobs where a personal office is a luxury that few companies are willing to pay for. You get a desk, at best, and a laptop.

Still, as difficult as it is to purchase office space in some markets, it's not impossible. You just need to make do with less. No on-site parking, no gigantic health-club facility or cafeteria.

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by LordKano on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @11:27AM (#9930165)
Now you have Millenials who value living and working closer to interesting coffee shops, restaurants, clubs, and bars than living in Nowhereville which has a Denny's, a Subway and a Dunkin Donuts as the only options.

It's cyclical. One day (sooner than you think)those millennials are going to be 30, with families and they won't care nearly so much about clubs and bars. They're going to start wanting to grow gardens and have a safe place for their children to play.

Plus they're so deep in student debt that buying a suburban house or leasing a car is not an option.

I guess that it's just a function of the local real estate market but my suburban mortgage payment is lower than the urban rent that one would pay in any decent part of this town.

The suburban office will always be in the wrong spot.

Don't be so sure about that. One day, you're not going to be the hip youngster anymore. One day, sooner than you think, you're going to be annoyed by the stupid nonsense that the kids of the day are doing. One day, you'll have a lot more fun in your house than out on the town.

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by jbooth on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @12:52PM (#9923673)
"I would be really surprised that some research wouldn't find that many of these office parks are built outside of the borders of major cities to avoid paying taxes"

If you were gonna throw out a spitball estimate for the 3 numbers:

1) Tax impact in city vs burbs

2) Cost of land / lease in city vs burbs

3) Company payroll/benefits

What would you guess the ratio of #1 to #2 + #3 is?

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by _dps on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @08:55PM (#9927023)
Their total value is irrelevant; what matters is the ROI you get from increasing or reducing each of them. I submit that taxes offer the lowest ROI of the three from the perspective of most businesses (but I admit that paying taxes to be in a good location can deliver ROI).

So as a business manager you ask: what do we lose by exiting this tax jurisdiction and what do we gain? And most importantly, what's the ROI? If my margins are tiny (say, most retail and restaurants) then saving 2% of my budget per year on taxes can mean the difference between a 4% and 6% ROI if the other factors remain equal.

That may sound like a small difference but it is not: it is as large as the spread between equities and bonds at most points in time (so if I'm only going to make 4% why be in business at all?) Why not just fire all my employees, use my budget to buy Walmart corp bonds, get 4%/year, and not have any management headaches or employer liabilities?

As economists say, most decisions are made "on the margin"; so the total amount that goes into tax is not as relevant as how much can be gained or lost by shaving off tax liability vs other kinds of costs.

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by jonknee on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @12:50PM (#9923652)
How does that explain that these low tax buildings are now being left empty in favor of options in the higher tax cities? If they were so desirable they wouldn't be sitting empty.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by at-fates-hands on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @01:08PM (#9923812)
I would also add why big corporations are staring to build NEW multi-million dollar campuses instead of renovating a lot of these office parks.

I live in Minnesota and United Health Care has done both. they've bought newer buildings that were vacated and just built a huge (72 acres) campus on the outskirts of the city: http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/print-edition/2011/09/...

Cargill several years ago built a huge new campus at an abandoned Super Value production plant:

http://www.opus-group.com/OurWork/Excelsior-Crossings

Also, I've seen older 1970's corporate buildings demolished and there's an area in a nearby suburb where they're trying to rejuvenate the area where nearly all the buildings are empty with a $500 million project plan:

Demolition: http://hillcrestdevelopment.com/pentagon-park-south-tower-de...

Renovation of area buildings: http://hillcrestdevelopment.com/renovation/pentagon-park/

Redevelopment Plan: http://www.startribune.com/edina-aims-at-a-signature-project...

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by fluidcruft on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @01:00PM (#9923756)
There are a lot of empty old buildings downtown, too. I don't remember seeing any comparative data in the article beyond that employers seem to be reducing space/employee (they are of course also reducing the number of employees). Of course it makes sense to contract toward the center, that has nothing to do with preferences, it's just economic geography 101.

With respect to the particular building mentioned in the article, it is hardly surprising at all that the NIH is contracting its footprint given recent funding history.

Edit: As mentioned by another commenter, it turns out the NIH didn't move things downtown. Instead, it's just opened a brand new campus that's even further away.

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by hodwik on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @01:48PM (#9924223)
The beltway has a vacancy rate of 17.1%, within the city it's 12.3%. Not that different, especially when you consider that DC has an artificially low vacancy rate due to height restrictions.

And anyway, Montgomery County, MD, is an unusual case. There was a lot of speculative building going on there due to rumors that the city of DC was going to put in a subway line through the country (going back to 2003). That dream has evaporated, with current estimates putting the project out to 2030 and later, so you have a lot of speculators left holding the bag.

Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by jonknee on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @02:15PM (#9924456)
I would call a 40% difference in vacancy quite significant.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by hodwik on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @03:39PM (#9925143)
40% of a small number is still a small number. Lightening strikes 100% more men than women.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by TheCoelacanth on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @05:08PM (#9925823)
17% is not a small vacancy rate. It's a fairly high vacancy rate.
Re:The old suburban office park is the new American ghost town by hodwik on Tuesday July 21, 2015 @11:08PM (#9927526)
I don't know where you are, but in the US that's just about average --http://m.nreionline.com/office/once-again-office-vacancy-rat...