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Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by kmonad on Saturday July 18, 2015 @06:25AM (#9907152)
I don't have it ready at the moment but I do believe there is a study from London School of Economics (around 2006?) showing that unhappiness about salaries arises through comparison and not through absolute values. Just playing devil's advocate, could the strict secrecy you experienced not perhaps be an academically informed attempt to maintain happiness despite differential pay instead of an exploitation plot (exaggerating here)?
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by dpweb on Saturday July 18, 2015 @08:37AM (#9907396)
Both are reasons to keep salaries secret. The information advantage helps in negotiations with employees. Also, the secrecy prevents anger over comparisons. It seems unneccessary to me. Why not just pay people the same for each position, with merit bonuses for those who exceed/excel.
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by riffraff on Saturday July 18, 2015 @09:25AM (#9907492)
I'd like to agree with 'Why not just pay people the same for each position' but to play devil's advocate, off the top of my head:

* not all people in the same position are equally qualified * reducing the difference to bonuses might mean a lot more overhead * salary might cover for things other than just competence, i.e. Alice and Bob are equally qualified, but you hire Alice out of college while Bob already had a well paying job

I wish there was enforce transparency about salaries but I'm not sure all of them can be just leveled to position+bonus.

Joel Spolsky had an interesting approach to this, a more complex formula but still public and consistent for all employees:

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000038.html

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by dpweb on Saturday July 18, 2015 @10:07AM (#9907572)
True, you may want to adjust for say, years of experience. Although if that was transparent.

For instance, Dev level 2 makes 100k with 10k additional per every 3 years professional experience - you have differences amongst the staff but less room for people to complain about the variances.

The point is, salaries are not arbitrary, which is the basis of the anger when staff compares against their peers.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by morgante on Saturday July 18, 2015 @11:10PM (#9909910)
> Why not just pay people the same for each position, with merit bonuses for those who exceed/excel.

Because people aren't cogs and they all function at different levels of productivity.

I've literally never worked with anyone who I would consider to be of precisely equal value to me. Everyone else has been either more valuable or less valuable, by a tune of at least a few thousand dollars annually.

Fixed salaries prevent paying people by their value and instead mandate a rigid adherence to "years spent" and "grades." I would literally never work for a company with fixed salaries.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by mgkimsal on Saturday July 18, 2015 @12:30PM (#9907967)
"with merit bonuses for those who exceed/excel"

How do you measure that? In most teams I've been involved in, the entirety of the team suffered with the weakest link. My 'merit' was tied to the efficiency of poor team members. A colleague of mine (different company) was on a team with about 15 others in his dept - 60+ folks in all. The daily incompetence he described was rather high, but not surprising when you have non-tech folks making tech decisions. I said "hrm... perhaps people would be motivated to care/do more and improve if they got some sort of profit sharing bonus". He said "WE DO! My bonus continually gets eroded because we've got incompetent do-nothings who continually shoot down progress" (paraphrasing).

I don't particularly want a large/variable portion of my income to be that tied to situations that I have that little control over.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by Udo_Schmitz on Saturday July 18, 2015 @06:32AM (#9907156)
So, are people in Sweden, Norway and Finland–where you have access to your fellow citizens salary–more unhappy?
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by quonn on Saturday July 18, 2015 @06:42AM (#9907172)
No, but they are, as far as I know, societies with much smaller income differences than other countries. So that might make up for the fact that the information is public.
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by kybernetikos on Saturday July 18, 2015 @05:58PM (#9909100)
It's probably not unconnected. I heard an interview recently with a company that shares salary data with all employees, and he said it provided a downward pressure on the salaries for top jobs as the people making those decisions knew that any employee could ask them to justify themselves.
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by danellis on Saturday July 18, 2015 @01:46PM (#9908239)
In keeping with the topic, I don't think developers are unionized in those countries either.
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by e12e on Sunday July 19, 2015 @11:09PM (#9913830)
Some are, some are not -- at least in Norway. Unions are particularly strong in the government sector, and generally even developers will be unionised there -- in the private sector there's a general feel that a software engineer is in such a strong position that they don't need a union.

Like for most types of work -- that's probably wrong. But people only ever figure it out when it's too late.

At my previous workplace (a research institute) I believe pretty much 100% were organized, both researchers, developers, sys.admins and other staff.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by lumberjack on Saturday July 18, 2015 @07:29AM (#9907291)
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I would think salaries in such union dominated work places are much less arbitrary in the first place.
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by danieldk on Saturday July 18, 2015 @07:14AM (#9907254)
Maybe, but I assume only when the differences in pay are large?

E.g. in German universities, your pay is just a table lookup. The position has a certain pay scale (as advertised with the position) and within that scale the number of years of experience at pay scale level is counted.

Such a system may have its downsides (when trying to acquire people). But it is inherently fair: you earn the same regardless of gender, position on the intro/extrovertness scale, etc.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by hueving on Saturday July 18, 2015 @07:19AM (#9907271)
> But it is inherently fair:

That's bunk. Number of years of experience being a major factor is one of the quickest ways to kill any kind of meritocracy. It's true you earn the same regardless of gender, extrovertedness, etc. But it means you also earn the same regardless of competence, creativity, or general usefulness as an employee. Talented people go where they can be rewarded for being exceptional. Mediocre people dig in and count the days until their next automatic raise for continuing to breathe in and out.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by danieldk on Saturday July 18, 2015 @08:53AM (#9907428)
But it means you also earn the same regardless of competence, creativity, or general usefulness as an employee.

There is probably no strong correlation between creativity/competence and the skills to negotiate a salary. There is probably a strong correlation between salary and gender, extrovertness, etc. and some correlation between years of experience and competence (within a particular scale). So, yes, it is inherently (more) fair.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by hueving on Saturday July 18, 2015 @05:54PM (#9909088)
No its not, it punishes competent people and rewards incompetence. There is a reason no leading tech companies do this. A university can only get away with this because good professors can earn more money from grants and can get perks like tenure.

Also, if someone can't negotiate their own salary, that's their own problem. Not being able to convince a company you are worth money either means you don't understand what value you can provide or you actually aren't providing that much value. It's not up to the company to do that for you. Doing it is less fair to anyone that knows what they are doing.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by belorn on Saturday July 18, 2015 @07:39PM (#9909431)
Isn't this whole discussion exactly the same old one made between salaried based wages and performance based wages? One side arguing that salaried employees could just roll their thumbs and still get paid, while the other side argues that you would get fired or simply that people who do so won't get hired in the first place.
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by coliveira on Sunday July 19, 2015 @09:28AM (#9911121)
The reason no leading tech company does this is that they are all trying to pay the least amount of money. You seem to forget that just a few years ago most big tech companies were found to run a scheme to reduce salaries of people working for them.
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by Matthias247 on Sunday July 19, 2015 @07:43AM (#9910878)
I agree. I work one of germanys biggest engineering companies (automotive sector), where pay is pretty much equal. There are certain job levels (secretary, technician, engineer, manager, etc.), but inside of these levels the salary is only determined by "years of experience" (which is mostly how long you have been in the company). I found it totally frustrating, because independent on how much effort you put in your work and how much benefit you bring to the company you won't get any monetary benefit or promotion. On the other side you see some older guys which are leaning back and waiting for retirement which get higher salaries. This really lowers the motivation to achieve something good amongst all employees after a while.

It was one of the reasons I resigned and will start at a smaller company next month.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by kuschku on Saturday July 18, 2015 @07:52AM (#9907329)
And still, a lot of exceptional people are working at these universities.

If you, as professor, for example, start a research project that is interesting, you also often get funding from the industry – part of which goes directly to your salary, too.

So, exceptional people still have chances to get exceptional pay, but only if scientific organizations like the Fraunhofer Institute or industry corporations are interested in it.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by davidf18 on Saturday July 18, 2015 @10:23AM (#9907604)
And of course, there is a brain drain of the very best that come to the USA from any place that doesn't fairly compensate. I'm all for these unfair compensation schemes because I want the best and brightest to come to the USA.
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by kuschku on Saturday July 18, 2015 @11:35AM (#9907774)
Well, that doesn’t happen, though, especially in hardware – the US excels in software development, but especially in classical engineering and more hardware-focused engineering, it’s a lot behind.
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by davidf18 on Saturday July 18, 2015 @12:19PM (#9907934)
Yes, in terms of car design, Germany and Italy are tops, in terms of industrial machinery, (mechanical printing, cloth), the Germans.

But I used to work as a VLSI (computer chip) designer and in that area USA (Silicon Valley) and Israel are tops. After Silicon Valley, Israel has the most computer chip designers in the world, about 20,000. Intel employs 10,000 Israelis in two design centers and two fabs. One of the fabs is a 22 nm node being upgrade to the 10 nm node. It was the Israelis that were in charge of mobile and instigated Intel's change of higher performance from lower clock rates.

Apple looked all over the world for its computer chip design center and chose Israel where it now employs 700 and hiring more. Tim Cook was there in February dedicating a new building. His VP in charge of hardware/computer chip design is an Arab Israeli who has his BS and Masters degrees from Technion, the MIT of Israel.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by kuschku on Saturday July 18, 2015 @03:41PM (#9908633)
One of the professors at my university, after he worked as one of the leading ALU designers at intel for some years, founded a company focused on general purpose computing extension cards for PCs, which he later sold, and made a fortune with – all of that outside of Germany. He only came back when he lost his money (which he invested) during the dotCom crash. Now he’s teaching here, and one of our best professors in chip design and digital engineering.

As you said, a lot of the stuff happens outside of europe currently, but that’s also due to extreme electricity prices.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by OJFord on Saturday July 18, 2015 @01:17PM (#9908137)
> But it means you also earn the same regardless of competence, creativity, or general usefulness as an employee.

Well, no, because presumably the more competent employees get bumped up a payscale, and the truly "useless" ones are quickly dismissed.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by omonra on Saturday July 18, 2015 @08:19AM (#9907373)
Sorry, this is nonsense.

It's fair in a world where all people are equal. Since people are unequal this is the opposite of fair.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by danieldk on Saturday July 18, 2015 @08:50AM (#9907424)
And there are many people who are extremely good, but too shy to negotiate a higher wage. And there are people who are mediocre, who are good at making deals and get the higher pay.
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by omonra on Saturday July 18, 2015 @03:45PM (#9908645)
And there are people who are born to rich parents - that's life. People differ in intelligence, looks, ambition - anything really.

My point is that disparity in income (let's say in the same organization) is mostly to do with value that a given individual brings to the organization (in the eyes of the management who decide on this). Negotiation is an order of magnitude less important.

Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by Merovius on Saturday July 18, 2015 @10:49AM (#9907666)
As far as I know, this only regards base-pay. There is a lot of wiggle-room in terms of bonuses, staffing, space… Apparently a professor in our math-department was expensive enough, that a different position needed to be downgraded to the point where no one qualified applied anymore. Your exact compensation also depends e.g. on whether or not you have family, to the best of my knowledge.
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by zeroonetwothree on Wednesday July 22, 2015 @01:23PM (#9930977)
It's inherently equal, but hardly fair.
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by walshemj on Saturday July 18, 2015 @10:44AM (#9907655)
"School of economics" so do you not think they would be biased towards providing results that suited their clients agendas?
Re:Ex-Googler says she exposed company-wide pay inequality w... by woah on Saturday July 18, 2015 @06:56AM (#9907225)
Ahh... What kind beneficence... Just helping to keep people happy.