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Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by TheOtherHobbes on Saturday July 11, 2015 @08:09PM (#9872056)
He's better educated than most politicians in Europe - including most finance ministers.

I wasn't expecting a deal, and lo - it seems a deal will not happen.

Greece could offer to sell its people into slavery, and it seems that still wouldn't be enough for certain elements in the European nomenklatura.

So Grexit it is.

If anyone is crazy, mad, and delusional, it's the German establishment. Schauble would rather rob his banks of any timetable for repayment than deal with financial reality like a rational adult.

Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by jules on Saturday July 11, 2015 @08:41PM (#9872116)
The banks counted on other countries to bail out any other in the eurozone, so they provided as much risky debt as they could. Maybe I'm cynical, but however this ends, it will probably end up being a wealth transfer from the european taxpayers to the banks. We've seen this time and time again recently: socialize private risk. The only way this ends is by letting the banks go down eventually, otherwise they will continue risky behavior, counting on the public to save them when things go wrong. Unfortunately the system is such that this is not in the interest of the politicians. Politicians with "good behavior" get cosy high paying jobs in the financial sector after their political career. Just look up any ex politicians and I bet you he or she is now working in the financial sector.

The solution for this is to extend a politician's salary for say 10 years after, and forbid them from accepting any money from any company for those 10 years. They can work for those companies for free if they want. They cannot get a cosy job after they've shown "good behavior" in their political career. The cost of this is a drop in the ocean compared to the perverse incentives this will remove. Say what you want about Dijsselbloem, but this is one thing that he gets right. https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...

Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by icebraining on Saturday July 11, 2015 @09:13PM (#9872206)
"End up"? It has already happened. (From Wikipedia, but well sourced):

Initially, European banks had the largest holdings of Greek debt. However, this has shifted as the "troika" (i.e., European Central Bank or ECB, International Monetary Fund or IMF, and a European government-sponsored fund) have purchased Greek bonds. (...) Excluding Greek banks, European banks had €45.8bn exposure to Greece in June 2011, with €9.4bn held by French and €7.9bn by German banks. However, by early 2015 their holdings were minimal, roughly €2.4B.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis#C...

Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by igravious on Saturday July 11, 2015 @09:30PM (#9872260)
Euro area population: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/population

330,000,000 (2015 numbers)

Fiscal transfer: €45.8B-€2.4B = €43.4B (your numbers :)

43.4B / 330M = €131.5 from each man, woman, child in the €zone.

Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by vidarh on Saturday July 11, 2015 @08:43PM (#9872119)
It is amusing and sad that Merkel apparently described Tsipiras as "hard and ideological" when the German position is so clearly ideologically driven.

Merkel is risking her legacy over this, and Schäuble's legacy in Europe is basically sealed - barring something truly crazy happening, he'll be remembered for this, and just this, outside of Germany.

And in the end the outcome - no matter what they do - is that Greece will not pay all its debts. Everyone knows this. The IMF have gone historically far in expressing public dissatisfaction with the Euro group and the ECB over their unwillingness to accept this.

Yet they appear to insist on sticking with the alternative that will cause the most pain and uncertainty for everyone involved just because further debt relief doesn't fit their ideology, knowing that the end result either way is that the money won't - can't - be paid back on the current schedule or in full.

Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by Mithaldu on Saturday July 11, 2015 @10:02PM (#9872337)
Schäuble is already remembered in Germany as an insane man.
Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by MarkMc on Saturday July 11, 2015 @11:14PM (#9872465)
I don't understand why you rail against the 'German establishment'. Aren't they just implanting the wishes of the German people? Same for the Finns, Latvians, etc.
Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by tomp on Sunday July 12, 2015 @01:34AM (#9872684)
Many people in EU think about the situation as "give Greeks more money" vs "give Greeks 0 money", whereas in reality the situation is "get some Greek debt repaid" vs "get 0 Greek debt repaid". Obviously, in the first case, the latter is the better option, while in the second case, the former is. It's mainly the politicians' fault of presenting the issue in terms of the first two options to their people.
Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by gonvaled on Sunday July 12, 2015 @01:29AM (#9872672)
Sure, they are maybe implementing the wishes of the people ... or shaping public opinion. I bet that framing this crisis as a humanitarian issue and a people vs banks issue, instead of as a lazy greek vs industrious germans, would have fostered solidarity between european nations instead of increasing nationalistic tensions.

We are far away from the climate pre WWI/WWII, but that is the direction we have chosen. Let's hope the next round of politicians are able to take a broader view, and that the current situation is reversible.

Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by coldtea on Sunday July 12, 2015 @12:16AM (#9872565)
Nope, they play on them and manipulate them to save German banks.

It's the "too big too fail" scenario, this time with the Eurozone playing the part of the federal government. Greece plays the role of the people getting mortgages that couldn't afford to repay post bubble.

The punishment of Greece (and other countries in turn, including France) will be used to clamp down on the German population in the end and keep them accepting of austerity and neo-liberal measures of their own.

Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by vixen99 on Sunday July 12, 2015 @04:52AM (#9872951)
Small point: the 'better educated' comment is at base an appeal-to-authority argument. In other words, irrelevant. Is there an argument or isn't there? And anyway, how is 'better educated' defined? Does the standard 'university degrees ladder' always trump other considerations? Often enough, it probably does not.
Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by tiatia on Saturday July 11, 2015 @08:28PM (#9872090)
Well, game theory did not work out for him and no he is mad.

It is a little bit if your wife threatens you with divorce and you say: OK, let's do it.

Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by vidarh on Saturday July 11, 2015 @08:55PM (#9872158)
I don't think you're right that game theory did not work out for them.

Your assumption appears to be that what they could hope for was a reasonable deal. But the way Schäuble has acted, it is by now clear that a reasonable deal is unlikely to be possible. For Germany this is all about ideology, not about economic rationality (amusing they accuse Tsipiras of being too ideological).

In that instance, what could they hope for? Their winning scenario is to demonstrate to their own constituency that they've tried everything. They've stretched extremely far. They've demonstrated to their home audience how Germany wants to humiliate them rather than get a fair deal.

They've further managed to create substantial cracks in the Euro group facade, with France in particular now openly having taken their side.

If they exit, then it is clear the Euro must be reformed if it is to survive.

They may in the end have permanently tarnished Merkel's and Schäuble's political legacies. Justifiably so.

Would any of this have happened if they had played ball and agreed to a toxic, unsustainable deal? The previous Greek government played ball, and what they got was a death sentence for the Greek economy. Playing ball with these opponents is a bad idea, since they seem intent of kicking in your knees first.

> It is a little bit if your wife threatens you with divorce and you say: OK, let's do it.

If you're told that to stay you will need to subject to daily beatings, then divorce is the right choice.

Re:Behind Germany’s refusal to grant Greece debt relief by Ygg2 on Saturday July 11, 2015 @08:46PM (#9872134)
Will people drop this narrative?

It was tired and strenuous, when it was published, but now it literally makes no sense. Sure he did Game Theory research, but LIFE != GAME. He said it so himself.

I haven't read a single unified explanation using game theory, that accounts for everything Greece government did during negotiations.

It's the Epileptic Trees[1] of the Politics.

[1] Epileptic Trees was one of explanations to why trees in Lost were shaking violently.