Can we agree that (1) this would be a "massive bureaucratic battle", and (2) the bar would be "incredibly high" ... but (3) this shouldn't reassure us much, because jumping through the bureaucratic hoops and meeting those difficult criteria doesn't actually constitute good reason for having your target assassinated?
Your comments about the FISA court seem a little like this. Let's stipulate that getting approval is a tiresome process, and that there are difficult criteria to meet. That doesn't in any way guarantee that it only happens in cases where it's actually a good idea.
This is a very dubious assertion. I'm not aware of any evidence that mass surveillance deters or prevents crime at all, much less is "an essential tool" for doing so.
But even if one, for the sake of argument, concedes the point that mass surveillance does significantly deter or prevent crime, you still have a system set up where the costs of that surveillance (loss of privacy, loss of accountability for abuses of power, introducing/secretly discovering backdoors, etc) are borne by the least powerful--ordinary citizens--while the benefits of mass surveillance (concentration of power, ability to bribe/extort/intimidate rivals, being seen as "doing something" about terrorism, etc) accrue only to those who are already powerful.
That is the real problem with mass surveillance. It creates a positive feedback loop that only exacerbates existing power imbalances, inevitably leading to corruption and capricious injustices by those who are most able to get away with it. Having a speedbump on the road to that inevitable destination, even a big one, is not much of a consolation if the heading is still the same.
Oh, you think you are sneaky. This is so carefully worded. You explicitly twist the words of the GP, where they use "fighting crime" you turn that to meaning "deters of prevents crime." They mention "surveillance", and you turn that into "mass surveillance."
That's like me saying "I don't see how fingerprint analysis helps to deter or prevent crimes." Oh sure, it helps capture people after the fact, but I don't think there has ever been evidence show that fingerprint analysis has actually deterred or prevented crime.
So, while you can stand their, smug with your "technically correct" remark, the reality is "surveillance is an essential tool in fighting crime" has been proven to be correct time and time again, and has been instrumental in handing convictions for a long, long time.
However, you also don't provide much proof that "surveillance is an essential tool in fighting crime". Its efficiency to deter/prevent crime, or even to help catch offenders a posteriori, is also highly debatable (I guess it's more likely to be helpful for the latter, but that still makes the definition of "fighting crime" rather vague as well).
For kicks, I like this paper on how street-lighting and CCTV cameras are apparently equally efficient as deterrent: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-9133.2004.... .
In the case of digital surveillance, I'd be extremely cautious about its actual efficiency. And that something is legal and efficient doesn't necessarily warrant that its ethical and should be used.
If this is to be analogous to bulk surveillance, the assassination agency would have to discover that the target had actually died in an accident eight months ago, just before the forms were submitted, and they would simply retroactively dismiss any wrongful death or homicide cases that may be ongoing.
The panopticon operators are asking forgiveness rather than permission, and only for those specific instances where the surveillance needs to be laundered from illegally gathered to warrant-authorized.
As such, I have no faith that the spying has ever stopped, or slowed, or even decreased its rate of growth. The steep bureaucratic hurdle does nothing to prevent it. The most it does is limit the amount of information that can be moved from the shadows into the sunshine via that method, and strongly encourages less costly alternatives to actually honoring the law. One such workaround is "parallel construction", where the illegal spying is converted into an anonymous tip to another "innocent" agency of the state, who then gets reasonable suspicion on a pretext charge--like failure to signal a lane change, plus the invocation of the magical ritual phrase "I smell marijuana"--and then the road-patrol cop somehow finds 20 kilograms of cocaine in the trunk.
Fixing or eliminating the FISA court won't stop the behavior. Only actual accountability for the people actually doing the dirty deeds will help.
State and federal law enforcement can request a warrant. The turnaround time is far lower, the search methods more diverse, and the evidence gathered can be used in court.
Unfortunately, state law enforement can still subpoena your email metadata and your phone records without a warrant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_v._Maryland
That sounds perverse.
Separately from belief, which is somewhat subjective (i.e. it involves more inputs than is practical to list in a discussion), it's important to realize that on a logical level, there are at least two interpretations to a 99% acceptance rate: (1) the bar is really low and (2) there are pre-filters. The certainty with which I often hear (1) being declared or implied seems to miss this point.
We're at far more risk from public servants with delusions of grandeur and infallibility going unchecked than lunatics with bombs. Lunatics with bombs cannot destroy democracy & freedom.
Indeed, the idea of lunatics with bombs seems to be far more effective at that kind of destruction than actual lunatics.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.” ― Patrick Henry
Definitely in agreement there. Look at history, it's always been the case.
That something is not illegal does not mean it shouldn't be illegal. The FISA process legitimises a kind of mass surveillance that shouldn't be legal to begin with.
This is why people call it a rubber stamp process. Even if they're only approving valid requests, the put problem is what is being considered valid.
Every single year people who are read onto FISA must complete a comprehensive course on how to deal with FISA data, and it's not taken lightly. People lose their job over mishandling of this type of data, for reasons such as: poor query construction, failure to timely delete accidental collection on US Persons, or collecting without prior justification.
You mean that rule which previously said you had to delete accidental collected information regarding US persons after 6 months? That rule was changed a year ago to 5 years, and in 4 years there won't be any systems left that can delete information and the 5 years will be extended again and again, in the same way as copyright.
Basically, there's no way to claim the system works when we can watch it produce bad results.
If the rules/procedures/expectations are well defined, one will attain a great rate of success simply by virtue of having a system which can be predicted ( failing candidates early, prior to submission ). This doesn't mean that the system is a rubber stamp, simply that it is reasonably consistent and that the expectations are clear.
This view of rigor/justice contradicts perhaps a common sense understanding which could be rephrased perhaps along the lines of 'should this be warranted/justified?'
It is frustrating perhaps as a result of this mismatch.
How many people are denied marriage applications?
Yet, recently with Marriage Equality...
Unless you have some sort of inside track, I must ask you how you know that applications are thorough and well constructed? Because the only way to be sure is to allow for public scrutiny, but the whole point of the FISC is to avoid this.
Also, you're forgetting that a federal Court has just said that the Patriot Act NEVER allowed for bulk collection. Yet the FISA Court allowed it. Why?! But that's what you get with a secret spy Court that has no accountability.
The fact that there are any indictments after such extensive training takes place suggests that Internal Investigations is not dismissing warranted claims of illegal police behavior.
I don't buy that logic at all.
You must have left on horrible terms though, the FISA court has just approved tracking your personal calls. I realize it's not personal, heck, they did the same to me. Nonetheless, there is a warrant to track your personal data. I'm not sure how reliable you could be. Why would they collect your data if you aren't under investigation?
Anyway, this is a stupid ranty argument appealing to emotion rather than logic. Bulk collection seems wrong in a way i have a hard time articulating.
On the other hand, saying that it's hard to get something to the court means basically nothing unless we trust that the bureaucracy and the court share our standards for "good requests". Having seen what things the FISA court has approved in the past, we can say that the system doesn't work simply because it already hasn't worked.
Government agencies will use FISA because it's there and they know it will get them what they want regardless of whether it makes sense to do it or not, leaked documents have shown.
No.
We've got two arguments
- Did FISA properly check submissions were appropriate for their rules/laws.
- Are FISA rules/laws appropriate for USA #1
NSA: Can we spy on everyone at once?
FISA: Why yes of course you can - BUT, you have to fill out this form first...and do it properly or we'll never approve you!
NSA: Oh..but that's such a drag! Okay, fine, we'll do it.
That's kind of what seems to be happening.
Also, my "reasonable" meant "legally reasonable".
Which is exactly what people have complained about.
How would this be any different from the bar that a prosecutor has for bringing a criminal trial to court? Lost time, lost reputation, chance of losing the election. Every time a prosecutor decides to go all in, they're taking what could be a huge risk -- if not in that particular case then in the aggregate.
Yet we see much different numbers from courts when an open adversarial system is used.
So a reasonable outside observer is left to conclude that either the federal government is full of incredibly competent legal minds, for whom the slightest mistake would be anathema -- or it's a rigged game. Doesn't matter what they bring.
I understand I'm making a bit of a false dichotomy for rhetorical effect, but my argument is still sound. One of these options is much more likely than the other one.
To clarify the statements in press have been that no terrorists have been arrested based on the data. That is not the same as never having arrests.
There have been plenty of domestic arrests but they don't typically fall under the "terrorism" scope because of the nature of the act. Espionage etc... can be proven with this data and actions can be taken (like arrests) more quickly and easily than determining if someone is going to attack something a la terrorism.
I have no involvement in this case but I would say almost for certain that portions of surveillance in this case went to FISA for approval: http://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-we-arrested-a-russian-spy...
A gripe I have with the community at large is that the messaging focuses too much on terrorism and not enough on the other functions that are seeing successes everyday (counterintelligence etc...).
1. It applies to agencies you know and more specifically parts of those agencies you have experience with. Many federal agencies have demonstrated that the left hand and the right hand don't always talk.
2. Other agencies are free to apply different policies (cough NSA cough DEA cough) that aren't in line with say, the FBI's policies.
3. This does not change the fact that the FISA court acts as a rubber stamp, the bulk majority of what it rubber-stamps might have met the requirement of EO 12333, some of ought might also have been legal under the constitution and existing laws or maybe the judges are so blasé that they just assume that most of what they see must be OK, it got there after all.
What's the pass/fail ratio for it?
Reason being, the agency powers that be don't want to send something up that will be disapproved because it takes significant time and effort of general counsel and leadership of these agencies to process, implement and track to maintain compliance - even if the warrant is reasonably broad.
So these numbers really don't mean anything in terms of just "blanket surveillance." The bar for even getting something to the court, in my experience, is incredibly high and you typically need very high ranking people to sign off on it. Which means your evidence, reason for doing and ensuring that it is within the boundaries of EO 12333 and a million other regulations, has to be pretty airtight.