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Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by monochromatic on Friday June 12, 2015 @04:45PM (#9708424)
Why is that a comparison that makes sense? If we doubled the water available to tech companies, that wouldn't make them any more productive.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by jkyle on Friday June 12, 2015 @04:52PM (#9708460)
We're literally running out of water [1]. As in no more.

There are entire counties who get nothing when they turn on their faucets. Nothing. No more.

Not to mention the ground is sinking.

[1] http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-famiglietti-droug...

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by dirtae on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:01PM (#9708519)
Which entire counties get nothing when they turn on their faucets?
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by azinman2 on Friday June 12, 2015 @06:14PM (#9708892)
Quite a bit of the central valley. I attended a recent talk by the director of the CA water board, and she said this was her #1 priority... getting them water. The state is currently trucking in bottled water to these communities.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by azinman2 on Friday June 12, 2015 @07:19PM (#9709147)
Why would I be down voted for this?!
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by simoncion on Friday June 12, 2015 @07:34PM (#9709195)
Some folks are pretty grumpy. Don't worry, it'll likely be fixed in a little while.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by jkyle on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:08PM (#9708559)
Tulare ran out not too long ago.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by millzlane on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:29PM (#9708665)
I found a link. I wasn't able to reply to the commenter below. http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2015/04/30/california-a-state...
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by dirtae on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:21PM (#9708626)
Visalia is the county seat of Tulare county. I cannot find any articles mentioning that people in Visalia get nothing when they turn on their faucets. Can you link me to a source?
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by jfoutz on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:30PM (#9708673)
Ah, you're concerned about 'entire'. Yes. As of 2014, it's just people without the means or skills to change their situation. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/03/us/california-drought-tula...

It's more accurate to say, municipal water authorities can no longer meet demand.

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by slayed0 on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:10PM (#9708564)
edit: read that as countries, not counties

India is getting there [1]

[1]http://thewaterproject.org/water-in-crisis-india

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by yellowapple on Friday June 12, 2015 @08:51PM (#9709412)
Indeed, we're running out of water. That means that we need to know not only how to reduce overall water consumption, but also to prioritize how that water is consumed. I reckon crops (even the less important non-staple ones) are more important than green lawns right now.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by simoncion on Friday June 12, 2015 @07:35PM (#9709200)
"There is currently a water shortfall of about 6 million acre-feet per year, which is being sustained by exploiting non-renewable groundwater and other sources."

Via: http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/05/11/california-water-you-do... (If you haven't read this, you really, really, really should. It's an accessible, level-headed analysis of California's water situation.)

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by hauget on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:00PM (#9708514)
Water is a scarce resource in this case. You don't exactly let the "wealthy" buy off everything they can just because. Scarce resources need to be regulated my friend.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by wskinner on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:35PM (#9708705)
Scarce resources need to be exposed to market forces. The purpose of markets is to allocate scarce resources and price them appropriately.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by hauget on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:53PM (#9708795)
Even when those resources could be bought by someone who will waste them? We're not talking about something like gold here, we're talking about a resource that is essential for human life. Would you really want someone who's wealthier than you to buy all the water around you just because they can?
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by geebee on Friday June 12, 2015 @06:58PM (#9709083)
No, I certainly wouldn't! Still, the drought is on my mind, and while I recognize the need to conserve, I am frustrated by my government's response to the problem so far.

So far, we've been responding to the crisis in a way that doesn't really allow people to make good trade-offs. For instance, I went to my parents house in a nice warm place, after a week in the fog, and my kids kind of wanted to play in the inflatable pool. My parents were bummed but asked us not to, because they're under mandates to cut back.

To feel better, we all went out for california raised beef burgers and gorged on walnuts. Several dozen inflatable pools of sheer deliciousness, all externalized.

Just kidding (sort of) about that last part, but this is the frustrating thing. Nobody is saying we can't use any water, we just can't use unlimited amounts of it. If someone goes vegan, avoids other water-heavy food sources, and doesn't wash his or her car, well, is it so bad that they might water a small patch of lawn or fill up the inflatable pool now and then?

This is what is so nice about markets, when people have to pay what something actually costs, they are unlikely to use as much of it.

Except, of course, you can now and then end up in a situation where someone rich buys "all" the water. One way to handle this is tiered rates, where it's cheap for the first bit, and perhaps very expensive after that.

http://www.sfwater.org/index.aspx?page=168

Looks like the first 4 units (1 unit = 748 gallons per month) is $5.45, so once you get the tap flowing (sunk cost), I'd say that drinking water is "free". Even showers are pretty cheap.

The problem is that it doesn't go up by much. After those first 4, it's only $7.31. Still pretty cheap for something that we are supposedly in desperate need of.

I suppose we could just crank up that second tier - in theory, that would keep showers, drinking water, and so forth affordable, while properly pricing the use of water to produce burgers, walnuts, swimming pools, lush gardens, golf courses, and clean cars. Now that I think of it, rich people already consume more of that sort of thing anyway...

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by hauget on Friday June 12, 2015 @07:23PM (#9709165)
Tier option sounds smart. I think we have a similar system in place in Germany.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by s73v3r on Friday June 12, 2015 @07:45PM (#9709234)
Unfortunately tiered rates in California have been ruled illegal. A bunch of anti-government people got a ballot measure passed which mandates that government services must be priced in line with their costs. Not a terrible idea in thought, but doesn't really help with situations like this.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by estebank on Saturday June 13, 2015 @03:02PM (#9712172)
Honest question: shouldn't the cost of replenishing the aquifers be considered as part of the cost of water? In other words, internalize the cost of externalized costs of water consumption.

Also, it is my understanding that there're already two different rates for water in California depending on whether you get in a tap in your house or you use it to water a field by the acre-foot. I'm guessing that legally it is something different than tiered rates, but it barely makes sense.

    This post is known to the State of California to cause cancer.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by tomjen3 on Friday June 12, 2015 @07:02PM (#9709108)
That is the beauty of the market: you do stupid things like that and you aren't rich enough to do so much longer.

If it was regulated and you used your buddy connections to appropriate all the water usage rights then you still have your buddy connections once you have taken my water.

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by hauget on Friday June 12, 2015 @07:22PM (#9709160)
There has to be a balance between government regulation/oversight and market forces. Just look at what happened with Wallstreet. You think no intervention at all would have been a good idea there?

It's not about disallowing the other guy from doing stupid things and not being rich anymore, it's about not allowing someone to waste precious resources essential for human life, so as to not make it harder for others in need to have access (at accessible and fair prices) to said resources in the future.

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by s73v3r on Friday June 12, 2015 @07:46PM (#9709237)
Not unless the cost of water is super, super expensive. Which it won't be.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by brazzledazzle on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:56PM (#9708811)
Up to a point. If the resource is the difference between life or death it should be rationed or regulated if there is a risk to those without the means or resources to acquire it.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by hauget on Friday June 12, 2015 @06:07PM (#9708863)
EXACTLY. Governments and other non-market forces need to regulate and step-in when market forces fail to regulate themselves.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by task_queue on Friday June 12, 2015 @06:10PM (#9708877)
That's great for pricing most commodities, but for necessities it is disastrous.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by seanflyon on Friday June 12, 2015 @08:41PM (#9709389)
It works pretty well for food.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by task_queue on Saturday June 13, 2015 @05:16PM (#9712702)
No it doesn't. Subsidies, social programs and massive regulations hold up our market for food.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by wavefunction on Friday June 12, 2015 @06:08PM (#9708871)
I disagree completely with your assertion, especially when the market forces are applied to vital natural resources tied to some sort of ridiculous notion like human money.

I'm at the point now mentally where the entire monetary system should be reset to allow a natural relationship between real value and fiat currency to exist. If that means that a bunch of wealthy people are left with nothing, then so be it.

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by copsarebastards on Friday June 12, 2015 @07:02PM (#9709100)
This comment is ridiculous. The horrible water situation in CA is a result of years of water being exposed to market forces. Do you actually feel no sense of cognitive dissonance between your beliefs and this very clear reality or are you just being disingenuous?
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by s73v3r on Friday June 12, 2015 @07:42PM (#9709223)
No. Markets are not the be-all, end-all of allocation. Especially for scarce resources that are vital for living. The market would simply have the rich get all the water, rather than letting everyone have some.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by yellowapple on Friday June 12, 2015 @08:53PM (#9709421)
If anything, that's an argument for cutting off non-essential (read: landscaping) water use entirely and prioritizing drinking water and agricultural irrigation (i.e. the things that actually tangibly benefit wealthy and not-wealthy people alike). We need drinking water and food. We don't need golf courses.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by 0xdeadbeefbabe on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:29PM (#9708666)
Regulation is where scarce resources go to die. Why not find a way to produce more?
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by eropple on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:31PM (#9708680)
Do you seriously think the answer isn't "produce more, and stop using so much until we do"?
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by yellowapple on Friday June 12, 2015 @08:55PM (#9709428)
The "and stop using so much" part is misplaced if you're really looking to the agricultural industry, of all things, to do that stopping. We need food and drinking water. We don't need green lawns and golf courses.

Not to say that water efficiency improvements in the agricultural space wouldn't be welcome, but rather that landscaping is arguably less important than even the relatively-unimportant foods, let alone the important ones.

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by eropple on Friday June 12, 2015 @10:15PM (#9709605)
Landscaping should be the first to go, but it's also a relatively minor part of the problem. Agriculture is the primary cause of water depletion--not just use, but depletion.

If the tradeoff is unsustainable and as-we-currently-know-it-irreparable biosphere destruction and more expensive almonds and beef (through higher alfalfa prices), I'm really okay with that trade-off and I think if you dig into the situation you probably will be too. People aren't gonna starve because dead cow costs more--because beef is already nearing "too expensive" for Americans in situations of food insecurity as is.

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by 0xdeadbeefbabe on Friday June 12, 2015 @05:44PM (#9708748)
I seriously have no faith that a group of people can regulate things efficiently. It sounds hopeful of course. I have more faith in desalination or some other engineering solution.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by eropple on Friday June 12, 2015 @06:18PM (#9708907)
So you are advocating the continued unsustainable use of a scarce common resource, in a way not provably necessary to the good of that commons, because we might be able to efficiently create more of that resource at an unspecified point in time.

Well, I'm convinced. I'll burn my house down this winter to keep warm, too.

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by 0xdeadbeefbabe on Saturday June 13, 2015 @07:42PM (#9713190)
Well the regulations only need to be a little wrong for things to continue to be just as bad as they are now. Isn't California already teaming with ineffective regulations?

If no one waters their lawn will you be happy? Is solving the problem your goal or is this just a thrilling political device? That would really suck.

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by shmulkey18 on Friday June 12, 2015 @08:23PM (#9709352)
Read "The Bet: Paul Ehrlich, Julian Simon, and Our Gamble over Earth’s Future" and learn why this sort of thinking has been shown to be wrong again and again.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by eropple on Friday June 12, 2015 @10:13PM (#9709602)
Or you could actually back up your post instead of a blind cite. But to save you the trouble of formulating an argument--because I looked through your recent posting history, it's mostly two-sentence talking-points stumping, I'm reasonably sure I won't actually get one--I happen to already know about Ehrlich and Simon's bet, even without Sabin's book, and I also know that that the lessons generally drawn from that by conservative thinkers--and ones not without merit on a sufficiently long time horizon--has remarkably little relevance to a literally incipient disaster scenario. There is simply no time left for human ingenuity to pull one out of our collective posterior. We have ignored the warning signs and we have committed probably irreparable damage, right now. It would be stupid to assert that water use reduction in California is not a solution, which is why it's very fortunate that I didn't make that assertion. Water limits exist to buy time for solutions to be formulated. And I'd bet against long odds that those solutions can be formulated. But not by next Wednesday.

Your black-and-white thinking--and the assumption that mine is as black-and-white as yours--kind of sucks, as does your cite-and-run dismissal. Can you please try to do better?

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by raldi on Friday June 12, 2015 @04:58PM (#9708501)
If we instead, e.g., mandate that all showers be painfully low-flow, that hosing down sidewalks is illegal (and thus, they'll often be covered in human poop in the area around Twitter), and other such things that make it less pleasant to live here, workers will be less eager to live here, and thus, it'll be harder to keep the best ones (or even the average ones) from moving to another state or country.

And thus, yes, it would make California's tech and other industries less productive, and less competitive with their counterparts elsewhere.

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by s73v3r on Friday June 12, 2015 @07:47PM (#9709240)
There are lots of other ways to clean off a sidewalk.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by raldi on Friday June 12, 2015 @07:53PM (#9709259)
And there are lots of other places to raise cattle or grow almonds than in a desert.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by yellowapple on Friday June 12, 2015 @09:31PM (#9709504)
California (specifically, the Central Valley, where most of California's agriculture is centered) is hardly a desert compared to pretty much everywhere surrounding it save for maybe Oregon.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by raldi on Friday June 12, 2015 @10:36PM (#9709657)
You're right, but nonetheless, we could conserve a lot more by making those cattle ranchers, and the alfalfa farmers who supply the feed, pay market rate for water (and, likely, move their operations to another state) than if we got sidewalk spraying down to zero.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by yellowapple on Monday June 15, 2015 @01:05PM (#9720603)
I think you're overestimating how much water cattle ranching actually uses, given USGS data on the subject [0].

Not that I disagree with you; from firsthand experience, I know full well that there's plenty of room for improvement when it comes to water use on cattle ranches. However, that firsthand experience also suggests that alfalfa isn't the only food cows eat (the family ranch I helped out on through my childhood involved a lot more grazing than even grass hay, let alone alfalfa hay, and pretty much all the pastures I remember were watered by rainfall alone), and that cows aren't the only use for alfalfa (a lot of grazing livestock - horses, goats, etc. - also eat it in large quantities, though I'm sure cattle are the dominant consumers). If alfalfa's using a disproportionate amount of water, then I'd target alfalfa specifically instead of incorrectly antagonizing the ranches buying it.

[0]: http://ca.water.usgs.gov/water_use/2010-california-water-use...

Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by raldi on Monday June 15, 2015 @01:12PM (#9720651)
I don't think anyone should be specifically antagonized. If agriculture paid market rate for water, instead of pennies on the dollar, the market would do a great job ensuring our scarce water got allocated for maximum utility.
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by yellowapple on Monday June 15, 2015 @07:05PM (#9722746)
The problem is that a lot of farms and ranches get their water from wells on the farms/ranches themselves. For those that have to pump in their water from elsewhere, then yeah, let's get water prices restructured. For those pumping their own water from their own property, however, we'd need some major rejiggering of property rights in order to justify charging land owners for the use of what's arguably their own property, and I'm not sure if that rejiggering would be a net good. I suppose a property depth could be enforced much in the same way that a property height is already enforced (in order to prevent landowners from restricting air traffic, for example), but that's going to have some huge backlash, I'd reckon, seeing as how much of an investment is required to build wells / water tanks, run power lines, etc. Perhaps mandatory metering of electric wells combined with water usage limits ("this is how much water we've detected to exist underneath your property; we'll charge if you use more than that, and credit if you use less than that") would be a good solution/compromise?
Re:California Announces Restrictions on Water Use by Farmers by raldi on Monday June 15, 2015 @07:31PM (#9722861)
> For those pumping their own water from their own property, however, we'd need some major rejiggering of property rights in order to justify charging land owners for the use of what's arguably their own property

This is doable. "California is the only western state that doesn’t really monitor or regulate how much groundwater farmers and residents are using."

http://ww2.kqed.org/science/2014/06/02/drought-drives-drilli...