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Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by ryandrake on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @02:03AM (#9644144)
If what you say is true about your own situation, you must realize that you are an extreme outlier, and no general advice you give is going to allow someone to repeat your immense luck. "Be valuable and you will be paid" sounds like vague happy-talk, not concrete, repeatable steps that one can put into practice and replicate your success.

Most people who are "exceptional at what they do" are putzing around at a corporation making a competitive, maybe above average salary. They are not on track to retire at 40.

I've also noticed that it's always people with money who say, "don't be motivated only by money". Easy to say. It's called "compensation" because it exists to compensate you for doing something you otherwise wouldn't be doing. Plenty of successful people are motivated by money, and there is nothing shameful about it.

Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by chubot on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @02:14AM (#9644180)
No, being motivated by money is likely to make you less wealthy, because it leads you to the same behaviors as other people seeking money. You are then competing with them, which lessens your likelihood of success.

Read Peter Thiel's Zero to One. He talks about competition vs. monopoly. You want to do things that other people aren't doing. He talks about the Harvard MBA grads who chase the last bubble, i.e. getting your timing exactly wrong.

People don't get rich by doing things other people told them to. And people don't get rich by doing "prestigious" things either. Read the parts here about prestige -- it's dead on:

http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html

(BTW this is also coming from someone who "got lucky" -- can retire in my 30's but never thought about money.)

Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by ryandrake on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @02:23AM (#9644203)
The problem with the simplistic "do what you love, love what you do" advice is that it is not reliable or repeatable. I can point to tons of people who love what they do and are still somewhere between solidly middle class and struggling to get by.
Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by chubot on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @02:45AM (#9644271)
Of course it's not repeatable. There's no repeatable way to get rich quick.

I think of it this way: Suppose you don't have exceptional abilities. If you do what is prestigious, what "seems" like it will get you rich, what other people tell you to do -- then you have roughly a 0% chance of getting rich.

If you take a slightly unusual path, enjoy it, and get the flywheel/positive feedback loop going, you have maybe a 1-3% chance of getting rich.

So if you want to increase your chances of getting rich, I would do something that others aren't, and do it to the point past where others would give up, because it's not making them any money.

The thread is over if you want a repeatable way to get rich. There is something analogous to the "no arbitrage" principle for personal income. If there were an easy way to get rich, someone smarter/earlier/luckier than you has already taken it, and they didn't tell you about it until afterward. You have to find your own way.

Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by UK-AL on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @04:53AM (#9644656)
Depends what you want. There are repeatable ways to get richer.

Probably not repeatable ways to get extremely rich.

Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by chubot on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @04:34PM (#9648751)
Repeatable way to get richer => "normal job" :)
Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by caminante on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @02:35AM (#9644241)
You're right that the "do what you love" advice is crap. However, I think -- and as Chubot points out -- you have to also avoid the same behaviors as others and offer something "rare and valuable" if you desire money. For those people that you can point to, do they offer the latter and do they have a good sense of when to cash in?

This post from Cal Newport elaborates further[1]. I highly recommend his book So Good They Can't Ignore You.

[1]http://calnewport.com/blog/2010/01/23/beyond-passion-the-sci...

Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by michaelrwolfe1 on Saturday June 06, 2015 @01:59AM (#9669887)
I admire these guys, but the probability of getting rich by going into banking or consulting or big law, for example, is quite high compared to almost any other career.
Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by adventured on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @02:55AM (#9644312)
Thiel's premise is not to do things other people aren't doing.

That would have ruled out Google (AltaVista) and Facebook (MySpace).

Thiel's premise is to be the last search engine, the last social network, etc. It's not: don't enter competitive fields; it's: compete, best the competition, and become a monopoly. There's no such thing as avoiding competition, there is no scenario under which Google was going to not have to compete, and have the entire market handed to them. The question is: can you acquire market dominance or not?

Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by chubot on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @03:44AM (#9644466)
His premise is: "What valuable company is nobody building?" [1] That sounds like avoiding competition to me.

If Google had wanted to compete, it would have gone for Yahoo, and become a portal, and tried to maximize user time on the site. The conventional wisdom was that Yahoo was far more worthy of competition than AltaVista. AltaVista wasn't even a company; it was almost shut down by its parent company IIRC. And it didn't make any money. Nobody wanted to compete with AltaVista. Search was viewed as a feature, not a company.

Facebook also avoided competition in its early years by being closed to the public and signing up one college at a time. They formed monopolies on social networks within specific colleges, and leveraged that position to expand to the rest of the world.

The idea is not to compete "head on". Don't just try to do same thing, but better. Do something different. It's hard to imagine what the world was like before Google or Facebook, but they were both doing something radically different early in their lives.

[1] http://www.wsj.com/articles/peter-thiel-competition-is-for-l...

Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by starmole on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @02:39AM (#9644254)
I totally see your point about the advice being douchey. But in this case it was somebody specifically asking for how to make the most money as a dev. Not a struggling single mom making ends meet. In his context I think I made sense. But I would never tell that to somebody trying to get by.
Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by ryandrake on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @03:06AM (#9644345)
My issue is not that it's "douchey". It's that it's not repeatable. I can change my mind and go into work tomorrow not motivated by money but that alone will not change my career path.

A more useful answer would be something along the lines of: "Get N years of domain experience in X technology at one of A, B, or C firms, and learn sales."

Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by starmole on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @03:38AM (#9644446)
I strongly disagree with the repeatable idea. Any progress comes from people NOT repeating things. Computers are good for repeatable stuff. Repeatable means institutional. It is the enemy of progress.
Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by austinjp on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @03:53AM (#9644495)
Progress != profit, for any value of "progress".

There are thousands and thousands of very successful businesses that mimic other businesses. Burger chains are a trivial example.

Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by caminante on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @04:26AM (#9644588)
Yet, very successful burger chains aren't selling "burgers," just like Starbucks isn't just selling "coffee." If that were the case, every business would make average burgers.
Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by jacquesm on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @02:29AM (#9644228)
He's not that much of an outlier as you may think, he's exceptional though to be making that kind of money and openly talking about it.
Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by PostOnce on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @08:49AM (#9645465)
It's hard to see beyond your circle.

If you know a dozen people making 500k, it doesn't seem that uncommon to make 500k.

And yet 40% of Americans earn under 20k.

40%! http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2012

Lots of developer salaries are around 60k, some lower, some higher, almost none exceed 100k if you actually look into percentages.

HN is a strange echo chamber with regards to money, it feels like everyone is making a killing, and really, almost no one is.

Re:Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant ... by angelbob on Tuesday June 02, 2015 @12:07PM (#9646797)
I've heard this said. However, I'm pretty sure most of the companies I've worked for have nobody in this category, at least among developers.

I work for small tech companies (generally under 50 devs) though. I can believe it's more common in big tech companies, where I just don't know.