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Re:The Failure of Agile by lkrubner on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @01:56PM (#9540724)
The only "process" that I've ever seen work is "have someone really good in charge." It doesn't matter if they are male or female, and I've learned that it doesn't matter if they initially have a technical background.

The best project manager I ever worked with, in the 16 years I've done this work, was a woman who initially did not have a technical background, but she was willing to dive into the technical end of things. She eventually taught herself SQL and how to write Cucumber tests, so she could better QA test the code she was overseeing. I met when she was in her 4th year, and she had an impressive skill for estimating how long a given task would take, and whether things were going well or badly.

If you have someone really good in charge, and they call their system "Agile", then it might appear that Agile works. If you have someone terrible in charge, and they call their system "Agile", then it might appear that Agile sucks. Likewise, if they call their system "XP" or "Deep Review" or anything else. But the only process that seems to matter is "have someone really good in charge."

Re:The Failure of Agile by Nelson69 on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @04:13PM (#9541643)
What's the criteria for a process to be considered "working?"

Fundamentally, since the inception of software, many people have thought that it's complex enough that we need "processes" to manage its delivery. Sort of like we have for manufacturing. Those processes often slow things down, make it difficult to add new features quickly, etc.. Their goal is to give the customer what they expect and have it work though. Agile pretty much says "fuck process, it's not fun" and that's it's whole philosophy. If you've got some really solid and dedicated heroes then you might ship some software that's great and make some money, if you've got some weak links on the team then you might not.

My heuristic has been that when the problem domain is large enough that it's acceptable for members of the team to not have it all in their head, agile starts to have issues. I've also noticed that if you're a "hard problem solver" kind of person, it's less fun.

It does seem like it has success in some domains and such, I'm not sure that it's entirely agile though. The one failing point I can clearly point to with agile is that it appears to be very very difficult to actually, successfully implement, there are so many unhappy people with it.

Re:The Failure of Agile by semi-extrinsic on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @06:17PM (#9542337)
> the only process that seems to matter is "have someone really good in charge".

I fully agree, and would thus like to recommend this manifesto: http://programming-motherfucker.com

Re:The Failure of Agile by faragon on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @02:13PM (#9540885)
I agree with you. Usually "agile" is used just as a religion: a mix of wishful thinking plus a way of pushing developers "because of the agile rules".
Re:The Failure of Agile by bduerst on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @04:16PM (#9541661)
>"have someone really good in charge."

Pretty much. The person you describes sounds like someone who is willing to learn/improve/grow and not be confined by occupational labels. This leadership trait coupled with self-motivation is always a boon to a team, regardless of the project management style.

Re:The Failure of Agile by kyllo on Thursday May 14, 2015 @12:05AM (#9543389)
And the someone really good in charge needs to hire a team full of really good people, too. Good process and competent management does not mean you can slot in interchangeable cogs to do the work and expect good results.
Re:The Failure of Agile by joe_the_user on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @02:01PM (#9540762)
Uh,

I can't see how a person can have "goodness" without that goodness having a structure which could be studied, systematized and taught somehow.

Whether that could be made into the kind of system marketed by gurus is naturally a different question and I'd be skeptical about that.

Re:The Failure of Agile by maratd on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @02:47PM (#9541120)
> I can't see how a person can have "goodness" without that goodness having a structure which could be studied, systematized and taught somehow.

How do you teach someone an attention to detail, good work ethic, and perseverance?

Those are character traits, not methodologies. If a PM has those 3, he'll be a good PM regardless of anything else. Actually, if someone has those 3, they'll be a good anything.

Agile or something else might make someone better, but they can't determine if someone is good.

Re:The Failure of Agile by vlasev on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @03:37PM (#9541425)
You can teach them. I personally had a lot less attention to detail before studying math. Good work ethic and perseverance can be taught as part of reaching a bigger goal, for example in sports.
Re:The Failure of Agile by ArkyBeagle on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @07:35PM (#9542685)
I have to be careful to adjust the level of detail down. And, frankly, that's one thing Agile is good for - the use of narrative.

I feel like shop work ( saws, sanding, filing, etc ) and music are better for that but maybe that's bias. Sports teaches some things, but there's an awful lot of sorting going on and some of the "adults" have weird reasons for being there. But I think of character as "what you do when nobody is looking."

Truly great coaches are worth it, though. The best one I ever had told me to get out of sports :)

Re:The Failure of Agile by bananaboy on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @08:38PM (#9542862)
Yeah I agree, but I suppose the person has to be willing to learn too. I can point to a couple of specific teachers and lecturers during my school years, and then the technical director at one job, who all influenced me a lot and shaped my work ethic and desire for attention to detail. Colleagues and friends may not have felt as influenced by the same people.
Re:The Failure of Agile by vlasev on Friday May 15, 2015 @04:10AM (#9549438)
It takes two people. I guess I'm implicitly assuming that the student will be relatively bright and wiling to learn but will be lacking some of those soft skills at first.
Re:The Failure of Agile by northernmonkey on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @02:50PM (#9541145)
How do they have those traits without being taught them? They are 'character' traits, but they are still taught. Surely we can agree you are not born with a good work ethic?
Re:The Failure of Agile by svisser on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @03:03PM (#9541221)
Some traits are inherent to a person. You develop skills over the years but some people "just are" more organised and disciplined.
Re:The Failure of Agile by collyw on Thursday May 14, 2015 @03:33AM (#9543868)
I find as I get older I get more organized and disciplined. Maybe its because memory isn't as good at absorbing information as effortlessly as it used to be.
Re:The Failure of Agile by branchless on Friday May 15, 2015 @09:23AM (#9550361)
I've got more organised as I get older, not because I want to make the world a better place or anything altruistic. Over time I've learned that if you are organised it takes less effort.
Re:The Failure of Agile by stcredzero on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @02:34PM (#9541022)
I can't see how a person can have "goodness" without that goodness having a structure which could be studied

If Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance isn't required reading anymore, this could be a sign that it should be.

Re:The Failure of Agile by krig on Thursday May 14, 2015 @01:57AM (#9543644)
Can you teach someone to be good at what they do? Of course you can study people who are good at what they do. Perhaps other people who want to become good at what they do can learn from that. However, no one will become good at what they do purely by emulating someone else, since what they do won't be the same thing.

Besides. Things like Agile aren't "observing what people who are good at what they do, do". It's a formalized process based on the ideas that some people who are good at what they do have about WHY they are good at what they do. But do people who are good at what they do really know why they are so? They probably don't! Besides, they are going to mix in all kinds of things that they think they do, or they think they should do, or they think that good people they learned from did, in that formalized process. In the end, the process they describe may sound good to them, but have very little to do with what good people actually do or should do in any particular circumstance.

Re:The Failure of Agile by ulfw on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @11:20PM (#9543272)
That is a ridiculous statement. But that 'definition' there are no good or bad people, good or bad engineers, good or bad project managers, scrum masters, managers or anything.

Not everyone can be 'taught' or just go by a structure. In fact I would strongly argue that those who just go by a predefinied step-by-step structure are always never the 'good' ones.

Re:The Failure of Agile by Retra on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @03:43PM (#9541460)
Can you teach it in less than 20 years? How do you know if you've taught it correctly?

The question isn't whether it is possible to teach it, but whether it is practical.

Re:The Failure of Agile by tormeh on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @02:09PM (#9540837)
I'd guess that the structure would have to be really big to cover all kinds of situations and corner cases.
Re:The Failure of Agile by Hermel on Thursday May 14, 2015 @12:43AM (#9543466)
Still, even someone really good can be rendered unproductive with bad processes and misguided strategy.
Re:The Failure of Agile by Consultant32452 on Thursday May 14, 2015 @01:05AM (#9543515)
If a really good person can be rendered unproductive with bad processes then that person is not in charge.
Re:The Failure of Agile by ams6110 on Wednesday May 13, 2015 @11:36PM (#9543310)
Not very profound really. Someone really good in charge is most likely hiring really good developers as well.
Re:The Failure of Agile by EpicEng on Thursday May 14, 2015 @02:21AM (#9543704)
There is a massive amount of work that goes on outside of writing code which contributes to the success of a project. Without strategic and tactical intelligence you're not going to get anywhere regardless of how good your devs are. In fact, the leadership and management functions are more important than engineering savvy. You can build a good product and fail, but you can also build a mediocre product and succeed. In the latter case, it's not the devs who got you there.

But yes, you're right; good managers make good hires. What's your point?