I dunno, I'll say "hi guys" to groups of women as well as mixed or male groups. I've also heard girls say "hi guys" to a mixed group.

I've also heard people say things like "hey up A" where A is in

["guys and gals", "guys and girls", "everyone", "mothafuckas", "nerds", "friends", "all you", "people", etc.]

Coming form a very formal understanding of language, I can see how it could be taken as a reference to only the men, but coming from my practical experience, "guys" has been used as a gender neutral way of referencing a group without issue.

Now that I think of it, this really is a context sensitive issue. For example, saying "hi guys" to a group of 100 with only one or two women in it might give some listeners the impression that there are no women, thus perpetuating the "boys club" view, whereas saying "hi guys" to an evenly mixed group might not give the listeners that impression.

Language is hard yo.

> but coming from my practical experience, "guys" has been used as a gender neutral way of referencing a group without issue

That's sort of the problem here. We're so used to it that we forget that it might not mean the same thing to others.

> I guess the Rust community isn't so carefree and non-sensitive after all.

Carefree? Mostly. Non-sensitive? Pretty much the opposite. Rust community is extremely sensitive. The rules are lax, but they draw the line at making contributors uncomfortable.

In IRC, the poop jokes and calling people guys, would have the same chance of drawing ire, which isn't huge. The whole "guys" thing is just a smidge more likely to draw ire. However if you are insistent on either accounts expect to get ostracized.

> I guess they don't feel like they belong in any part of mixed gender society then, since it is so widespread.

Well, yes. It's not like women make on average less than their male peers.

-------------------

Let me show an abriged version of what usually happens in IRC.

      Anon: Hi guys,
      Mod: We prefer the term guys and gals :)
      Anon: Hi guys and gals*

      Anonhole: Hi guys
      Mod: We prefer the term guys and gals :)
      Anonhole: I know.
      Mod: We have a term of conduct, please read it.
      Anonhole: I won't
      Mod: *ban* Anonhole

While it is certainly informal to say "guys," I have heard both men and women use it in a definitely gender-neutral sense for my entire life, including in workplaces, and informality is not impolite in an informal setting like an IRC channel. I wasn't sure if I was crazy here so I asked a couple of women I know and they were as surprised as I was. By contrast, nobody uses the word "gals" - it sounds incredibly awkward and lame. Perhaps the use of the word "guys" is regional, like "y'all" (sadly, it seems like English does not have any universally established pronoun for this). It's sad that you are proud of treating people who are new to Rust by permanently excluding people and labeling them as assholes for using idioms which are considered perfectly courteous and gender-neutral in many places. Given that, banning people just for using the word "guys" smacks of finding excuses to harass and ban people more than offering a welcoming community. If this is "what usually happens in IRC" then that might be a clue that there are dialect differences you aren't recognizing?

Insofar as you are representing the Rust community via HN, you've given an overwhelming impression that the Rust community is an unpleasant place where "outsiders" are totally unwelcome. As someone who considered adopting Rust prior to reading your post, that's a problem because with such an immature language I would eventually have to interact with that community and then I would apparently have to deal with people randomly nitpicking which dialect of English I learned and calling me an asshole. No thanks, life is too short.

I'm sorry I gave that impressions, but I'm not really member of Rust community. I'm just a guy writing Rust code and occasionally checking out the channel. I'm much more Java than Rust guy :P

Also you missed the point of that exchange, you are excluded from the Rust community, only if you act against Code of Conduct actively. The titular bad example was given a warning, he disregarded it several times and continued to behave against community wishes.

What do you expect happens once you act against what other members of the club urge you not to do? A single mistake/slip up isn't a problem. Repeated offense and disregard of CoC is.

Usually the custom is to greet each other with "Hi Rustaceans". It's gender neutral and has no negative connotation.

If this gives you impression of a treehouse filled with cultist, who am I to judge.

"Guys" is not gender neutral for everyone. You might find it that way, and I used to, but many women don't.

Re:IRC: You're conflating different things here. The IRC incedent was a sexual comment. Strict nono. "guys" is something that will be frowned upon. Sexual jokes are also a nono. Just today someone made a penis joke in IRC, and was similarly told to stop. Poop jokes -- childish, maybe, and certainly frowned on by some, but not considered harmful.

I don't see anything wrong with arbitrarily deciding. You're free to not play in the sandbox if you don't like the rules. The community likes those rules. And fwiw the rules don't disallow "guys". Again, you'll just be asked politely to not do that.