Once you make the choice to bring little ones into the world, it's not just about you and your pursuit of your happiness anymore. You don't ride off into the sunset not because of society's norms, but because if you did, what about those little kids? Should they be dumped by the side of your road because they're interfering with your happiness?
You made them, you owe them something better than that.
Right... but my comments were about the messages we get from society before we make that choice. It's how society (e.g. magazine article of this HN thread) can distort that choice.
>, what about those little kids? Should they be dumped by the side of your road because they're interfering with your happiness? You made them, you owe them something better than that.
You misunderstood what I'm saying. I wasn't talking about ethics. The husband could stay with the kids because of societal norms, or stay because he feels personal responsibility, or stay because his kid knows how to reprogram his Android phone. It doesn't matter what the actual reason is or whether that reason is noble or trivial.
My point was that the author of the article is putting forth a narrative about happy town life and it's heavy-handed enough that it comes across as a prescription for how to live. It seems as if she's not acknowledging that there are certain types of people who will not be happy prioritizing relationships over ambition.
That sort of blind spot is expected right? Isn't it normal for people who are happy to analyze why they're happy and then conclude it's the friends & family? Therefore they project that friends & family for others will likely make them happy too.
As a result, you get a lot of articles/movies/advice like hers playing up the family/friends/community narrative. It's not offset by any articles that advise a reader to diagnose if one's disposition is even compatible with that type of life.
If I'm hearing you right, your point is that we should be careful about society only crafting one message about happiness, because we could lead that man into the wrong unhappy situation.
I do think the evidence is pretty strong that friends/community is correlated with happiness, though it's an interesting theoretical question whether or not it's correlated without causation.
People who tend to be happy might also tend to like being part of a community.
I do believe the relationship is causative, but admit it's a hard thing to prove.
The hitch, I think, is when we try to prescribe how & when people should acquire them.
E.g., your culture pushes you into marriage at a young age "because having a spouse and kids will make you happy" when in reality having the right spouse will make you happy and the wrong one won't. Since you were pushed, maybe you didn't make a good choice in spouse.
Similar things could be said about shallow/forced/artificial friendships. While everyone benefits from good friends, what those friends are like and how you find and bond with them differs for different people
So maybe it's important to deliver the message that people are what matter, but also important not to try to force when or who or where, and let people find their own way.
that's what a trap is - you can't escape.
I would point out though that the original conversation is about community rather than children per se, and that this is a situation the man in question (usually) chose to enter.
That he might have made the wrong move is more his fault than society's for having misled him about what would give him happiness.
Oh, I've been there, a few times. The thing that stopped me ultimately wasn't "societal norms", it was that in all reality, the sun was shining, the road was empty, there was peace in the moment. The quiet and tranquility of being alone a stark contrast to the chaos and turmoil of home [you can only live in a state of chaos for so long before your brain can't cope with it any more]. Running off into the sunset alone serves no purpose though. Perhaps you settled down too soon, perhaps you've not yet learned to find the joy in being "settled down." I'm not saying you're wrong for feeling that way, I'm not saying don't drive off alone into the sunset and never turn back. What I am saying is that the grass is only greener on the side of the fence that you nurture it. Of course, your life may be amazing, you may love your job and you may love your family, friends and community - but everyone needs a vacation occasionally.
I don't really care bout "making something of myself" but to the extent you're going to be settled, one should ensure that they're happy WHERE they're settled. In the end I've learned that no one really gives a fuck about me. Not my parents. Not my brother. Especially not my wife. Maybe my kids, too young to tell. Doesn't matter how much I water my grass, I planted the wrong variety and ultimately it's kids (and poor health) that keep me rooted.
Sometimes I think I'm the only person in the world who had kids so I could give THEM happy lives and only when I realized that others didn't did their actions start to make sense.
> 2) the person who settled into family life and realized he's not really cut out for domestic living. Since society doesn't allow him to return his wife & children for a refund, he feels "trapped" in his boring existence. He lost his chances at "making something of himself".
From my work with the transgender community, I know several people who escaped into both of those lifestyles because they didn't know how to deal with who they are or were afraid to do so and, later in life, still found themselves profoundly unhappy.
They end up, in their 40s or 50s, trying to do what they wish they could've done when they were younger, only now they have an albatross around their necks that makes it even more difficult to pursue their happiness.
I guess I'm lucky in that I've never been either career-oriented or family-oriented. I have my friends and my hobbies, and I dearly love both, but I never had any desire whatsoever to either start a family or climb the corporate latter, and that's worked out well for me. I have lots of free time, and I have so little attachments that I was able to reinvent my life last year with minimal fuss.
[1] Paradise by the Dashboard Light - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C11MzbEcHlw
Well, there also seems to be a certain population of humans where "family, friends, community" does not bring contentment and fulfillment.
Think of a married man with children who often has thoughts of driving alone into the sunset and never turning back. It's only societal norms that keeps him from acting out his plans. When he was younger, his parents and friends had convinced him he'd be happy once he "settled down" but now he feels he's been sold a lie. Now what? Is he defective? If society forced him to watch "It's a Wonderful Life" ten times would he finally have a George Bailey (Jimmy Stewart) moment shown at the end of the movie[1]? Would he slap his forehead exclaiming, "yes I was so stupid. I should just be content with my family!" ?
Maybe there are some people who can't have that Hollywood ending. Instead, they live in a perpetual "Death of a Salesman" loop.
Maybe some folks must pursue a purpose and chase a dream and if they don't, "family and community" mean nothing to them.
>I was the ambitious one, the one that strayed far from home, chasing the dream, getting caught up in the consumerism.
But there's also ambition without the "consumerism".
In any case, let's say we have 2 types of people that don't know what "true happiness" is:
1) the person who chased life in the big city, got the Harvard MBA, the prestigious partnership at XYZ Law Firm, the whole brass ring. He realized it was all a waste and it was family relationships that he neglected that was really important.
2) the person who settled into family life and realized he's not really cut out for domestic living. Since society doesn't allow him to return his wife & children for a refund, he feels "trapped" in his boring existence. He lost his chances at "making something of himself".
It looks like the article we're discussing, and Hollywood movies, and most of the HN comments here are biased to scenario #1. It's like scenario #2 is a taboo subject.
Are we smart enough to self-reflect and know which type we fall into so we don't turn into 40-something zombies living with regrets?
[1]https://youtu.be/-0h50v7UNJc?t=2m9s