I'm one the best math students at my current school and calculus is fun for me. I'm the only person I know that knows how to program, none of the other students I've met are interested in computers at all.
The students that are performing at the same level as I am seem (to me) to be "elites". I find my self becoming more and more cynical each day listening to complaints about having an old model of iPhone or "having to go to Paris with dad" (someone really said this), when all I have is a flip phone and I've never ridden on a plane.
I told my self a few years ago I was going to learn to program because it seemed to be something that anyone could do (as long as you have a computer and internet access), seemed to be growing, and seemed to be high paying. I've gotten pretty good, but I still have a ways to go.
Now I'm at the point where I can leave my disabled parents for school and let my teeth continue to decay and deal with that social stigma, or I can get a job doing tech support and hopefully help my situation a little faster.
We'll see..
It's not always easy, but if you're smart and work hard, it gets better. If I could have given myself advice back then, I would've told myself not to be afraid of medical loans or dental schools. I've had ~22k in work done at a really nice dental school in SF that would have cost +50k at private practice. The sooner you get in there, the less it will cost in the long run (trust me).
Also, regardless of the current state of your teeth, every day is still a battle for your oral health. Brush after meals and floss regularly. Email me (link in profile) and I'll hook you up with a Sonicare toothbrush.
(Probably not relevant in GP's position, but hopefully someone finds it useful)
Of course, it depends on the person as well - but know that that friendships and meeting people like you is one of the biggest reasons to go to college and does factor into your decision. There aren't a lot of institutions out there where you'll be able to do that outside of a job. Of course, with student loans being as they are, I'm not quite sure whats worse.
Also, don't put it off. You can literally die from ignoring cavities.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/06/09/318212444/a-reaso...
I brush three times a day and I quit drinking soda and eating candy a while ago.
>Grow up and do something about it.
Uhh.. I am.
>get over your social anxiety and meet people who will pay you.
I'm doing what I can. I plan on building a "resume" over the summer.
Just so you're aware, even though it sounded like it, I was not complaining about my situation. I'm not looking for help, just thought I'd add my perspective to the thread.
I actually don't think I would change much about my early life at all. Part of me feels that if I hadn't struggled with being poor I would not have had the motivation to become a programmer, and I enjoy programming.
I know a few people in the UK who have travelled abroad for cosmetic dental work as it saved them thousands.
Edit - here's the kind of prices you get in Eastern Europe http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/private-treatment-abroad/which-co...
Though it may be cheaper for you to try and find somewhere in Central America, or the Caribbean.
edit - You could maybe find another reason to travel, one that you can get some sort of help with. Say you want to study the background of The Martians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Martians_%28group%29 and try to blag a flight to Budapest.
Instead of telling someone who is doing X and failing to stop doing X and start wining, it might be more helpful to suggest a realistic next action. In this case, perhaps apply to some very local universities for a CS degree, keep family close, and research community dental clinics with affordable payment plans.
Sigh.
The best I've ever found is John Cheese's Cracked articles on the topic which I felt were almost like he was writing from inside of my head.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-devel...
http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-devel...
If someone reads these, please understand that this is how I actually feel/act to this day, even though I make 100k+ a year. For example, I only own two pairs of shoes. My work sneakers, and my "nice" shoes. And I replace my sneakers only when they are completely busted, and I get the cheapest ones on sale I can find. Three pairs of shoes is literally crazy to me, and I feel bad about having 2 pairs of shoes since I never wear the "nice" ones.
Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.
But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.
This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness."
Good shoes will save you money if you can put in the initial investment :)
The results from that (sole) experiment were that the shoes lasted longer but not so much so that they beat out multiple pairs of cheaper shoes on price. The quality shoes lasted about 4 years, and I buy a pair of sneakers about every 1.5 years. However, the quality shoes were at about a 10x markup from the sneakers. So I'd need those quality shoes to last 15 years or so.
So for my money, it sounds like great fiction, but not great reality.
That said, I don't think this accounts for rich people having more money
Does anyone have the name or any clips?
I wear down heels very fast, and used to get through mass-produced shoes with moulded soles far too quickly. It annoyed me hugely that I had to throw away a pair of shoes whose uppers were in perfect condition, but whose soles couldn't be replaced.
In the end, I bought a pair of decent leather-soled shoes for $350 and get them heeled regularly; that was 7 years ago, they're still going strong, and I estimate that they've saved me a ton of money.
And as a "third way", I've kept my eyes open in thrift (UK = charity) shops, and have managed to get excellent, repairable footwear for next to nothing. My current pair of oxblood brogues by Allen Edmonds cost me $25, has been going for 5 years now, and barring accidents will last me until I'm well past retirement...
If you want to beat sneakers in terms of price, switch to work boots like Red Wings or Chippewa.
2 - the modern world has dramatically increased the price-per-quality on the cheap stuff, shrinking the gap
Nothing to be ashamed of, think about it this way: what you don't have you don't need to maintain or carry with you, stuff is vastly over-rated, having more doesn't equate automatically to feeling better.
As someone from a very poor background (actual poor - starving in africa poor, not US overprivileged 'I can eat for free out of bins' poor, but this is all relative...) I can sympathise somewhat too.
I agree with the point made here in this comment- personally, I never felt like I had the kind of disadvantages described in this article, and I'm sure its partly because I pass very well for an upper middle-class man thanks to a spiffing british accent I inherited from my mother - and partly down to a tremendous effort socially. I've always presented my background as exotic and interesting rather than woeful and sympathy-worthy.
All that being said, I am now doing quite well and earn a considerable amount of money, but still always find myself broke at the end of the month... its shameful.
A very rich man once said to me that if you act like a rich person eventually you would find yourself to be rich... I think there is an element of truth in that.
People are criticizing this line but I think there's a lot of truth in it. Despite what most people believe, people who get and remain rich don't spend every dime they have. They live below their means, save, invest, and grow what they have.
Our family got on the Dave Ramsey plan years ago (2008/9?) and it radically changed our thinking and life in a matter of months. After a couple years, it radically changed our lives.
Its amazing how a "upper crust" accent will play versus something something considered "low class". Its one of those hidden assumptions that adults make. I have a deep, loud voice that was tinged with a rez accent and quite a lot of slang.
Watch a kid react to Mater from Cars versus an adult. The story of the voice acting for that part worldwide is quite interesting.
looking at efforts spent on voices around the world in high quality productions is always interesting (in high quality dubs, even ambient background conversation is re-recorded, for example), and a strong reminder of how US-centric a lot of media is. people still build 'new' software with ansi strings after all... :)
Unfortunately, there is also truth in the idea that if you act like you're rich, you end up poor, because you wind up spending all you have (probably plus some).
have you met many rich people who spend like there is no tomorrow? its about acting like a /rich person/ not as if you have a limitless supply of money and are actually rich. :)
The contrast runs something like this: German dude, worth $10M made his money in real estate, started an online company, lost it all but bought Porsches and hired fancy places, in the end turned to crime in order to continue to finance his life-style.
American dude, worth > $50M (at one point...), spent money like it was toilet paper, golden taps in the bathroom, fancy Rolls-Royces (multiple...), used to be the #1 in a hotly contested tech field, lost it all when the market turned and he didn't adapt.
Swiss dude, worth >> $1B, modest house, drove a VW Golf (ok, a nice one), absolutely incorruptible.
They're nice examples to have and I understand that for someone worth that much there is no need to signal anything and that Germany guy may have had to keep up with his 'circle' in order to be seen as successful but still it makes you wonder how much pain there is behind all those frustrated faces in fancy cars living in expensive houses.
people who stay rich do not just spaff their money around left, right and centre. i think rich people call this 'new money' and using such a term would be an example of acting like a rich person.
But hell, you're going to school so you can make a better living in the future and afford some comfort later. I think the issue is you have to feel sure of yourself and not let peer envy infiltrate your thinking.
I also had no misgivings about asking for professor time --that's what they were there for.
I think you feel out of place if you somehow believe you must conform to the in crowd. I never liked joining formal groups etc. It's antithetical to me, even when I agree or have commonality with a group because ultimately it's you against the world and no ones going to help.
It's not inferiority, or lack of confidence. I didn't 'feel' out of place. I was out of place - the whole thing was out of place.
The article seems to focus on the 'bad', as if there's an injustice perpetrated against poor students.
But it doesn't work like that. The people just inhabit different worlds, the mutual understanding is limited, it requires effort rather than being automatic.
I would draw an analogy with being an immigrant. There's no real conspiracy, you're just different. Learning the local language, the customs, etc, will help you succeed. But in performing this act of assimilation, you lose a part of what was there before. The ones you left behind are different now.
I agree that not asking for professor time is just odd. I had no problem at all competing intellectually in my chosen field. It was just everything surrounding that.
UK elite universities are constantly railed on for not admitting more poor students, but part of the issue is that we simply have lower levels of attainment. Equality there is not possible without negative discrimination.
How do we fix wealth inequality? Well, we probably can't. But I do think we could go further towards providing necessities to all, which would solve a lot of the issues.
Simplified, some people have to worry about making the rent. Others own property outright. That's a massive gulf.
I didn't even know what University was. Oxford or Cambridge especially - it's like Hollywood, celebrities, it's a thing that exists that you're just not a part of.
I kind of grow tired of these discussions and just pop in every now and then because I feel like the gap in understanding is just so massive that it's fruitless.
The information asymmetry is enormous. A middle class person has friends and family that work in high status fields. They can directly see that you do A, B and C and end up with D.
Hyperbolic extreme analogy - imagine that you walk up to a remote tribe with an iPhone and tell them they could make a bunch of money making apps for it.
They don't have a clue, right? That was me at age 18. I didn't know how people became doctors or lawyers or computer programmers or whatever. That was for 'other people'..... everyone I knew worked in retail.
The article was about posh universities going after poor students, and making education work for them. Like minorities, its important to seek out Qualified candidates (not just some quota system that allows anybody). So the 'no poor kids apply' hurdle is moot. The Uni is supposed to be looking for them.
And they do exist. There's absolutely no monopoly on brains among the upper class.
And about how far ahead 'private schools' are - some of that is true; some of that is mythology, perpetrated by TV. In the end, its the students that make the reputation - and by definition, public schools have poor students, and poor students underrepresent achievers.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear your experience, its not all that different from mine.
In the US do you have the notion of 'poshness'? For example, making fun of someone who speaks a certain way, or turns their nose up at e.g. fast food? That's a massive thing. We live in tribes... pronouncing words correctly is a thing that results in ostracization here.
It pains me to say this, but here we are:
I am wealthier than my parents and hometown friends because at some point I realised what was going on, and took an active decision to take a different path.
I had to internalize the notion that I am better than them. I will work harder and smarter and I will beat them. Do you see that?
I had to beat them in order to win. I have to compete against my fellow human beings.
I have to reject their customs and use the customs that winners use.
Do you get that? That it's not just 'do A B C'? That the actions I took and continue to take have the effect of further seperating me from my friends and family? Every time I pronounce an 'a' or an 'h' in their presence it's effectively me grandstanding the fact that I'm not 'one of them' now.
Reading this post makes me seem like a colossal dick, right? But it's just a written description of social 'mobility'.
I am not better or more deserving than them. I just play a game. A game of emulation. I was born with talents, arbitrarily, and somehow that means I win and they lose. Meh. I think you just have to live it.
Its just adaptation, not betrayal. Maybe the worst thing is feeling ashamed of it? I'm rather proud of where I came from, and like to introduce my colleagues to the phrases and pronunciations of my hometown. But in the American Midwest, everybody plays the game "where are your people from" and there are no winners. Just interesting background.
I imagine it is even worse in the UK where there is a much more rigid social structure.
Parents will live in penury in order that they afford their progeny a better future. This is not u heard of in the west, but it's less common. Culture has a lot to do with it.
This sounds like a perfect summary of Dick Whitman's transition into Don Draper.
Even though no one here is looking down on me, or cares what I wear, or thinks I sound a certain way (they all love that English accent ;) ), to me, I feel like I do not fit into their world. Things I consider "posh" or "middle class" feel alien to me, and I am aware that I have a defensive response which means I try to make fun of people baking their own bread, or going on foraging sessions for food, even though I actually really wish I had the slightest idea how to do it, and did not feel like such an idiot for being a beginner at both. People are quite happy to teach me how to make bread from scratch, or how to recognise mushrooms, so the feeling awkward is all from my side, and I know it is a problem I need to deal with.
Coupled with the feeling uncomfortable in my new social environment is the comments I get from back home "Oh, so you think you are better than us now?". I spent 10 years prior to university pretending I could not do maths, and had no interest in intellectual subjects, and it is a hard learned behaviour to shake, and unfortunately, it took me several years at university to become comfortable discussing intellectual topics, without defaulting to my past behaviour.
For me, that, rather than money is the divider. Everyone at uni is on student income, so all relatively broke, and university here is free, with the government giving us money each month as well, but the attitudes I grew up with and around are a whole different story, and it is those which hold me back at times.
Yes! Thank you for using the perfect word for how I feel. I'm sure rich people have "rich people baggage" but I believe they are either a) not a deal blocker or b) mitigated by their advantages.
Edit: I have a few 1% friends. As far as I can tell, rich people baggage is usually complaining about money.
I'm not saying that there weren't wealthy people who spent absurd amounts of money. There were. But there were also plenty of people who budgeted aggressively, and made things like formal hall and pregaming before going to student clubnights on a Thursday night the highpoint of discretionary expenditure.
I don't come from a wealthy background. Because of when I started university, my parents were just outside the bracket that would have got be grants and bursaries (if I'd started a year later, they'd have been in it). Grew up in an ex-council house, dad worked down the mines, yadda yadda (I hate getting into the thing of "Look how working class MY upbringing was" but there you go). But I definitely didn't feel excluded. I suppose there probably were high-spending friendship groups that I didn't fit into. I can't say I felt like I missed out. You're never going to fit into every friendship group.
I'm assuming you went to Oxbridge. If not, maybe it is different. I certainly felt like there were a lot of fairly income independent activities that were applicable no matter your background. Pretty much everyone can go to formal hall, or to a bop, or even to events at the Union. At least in your first few years, those things are pretty central to social lives for a lot of students.
I don't know. I feel like my post is a little pointless: "I don't agree with your experience". Experiences aren't really up for debate. You experienced it, you felt it, it was real. I guess I just feel differently. Sometimes you have to say that.
I didn't have the sort of 'ski trip' nonsense. I mean it existed but didn't really affect me.
The subtle things do though. I had never met a middle class person in my age group before going to University. It's not just wealth. It's dinner, it's Radio 4, it's video games, it's national parks not Butlins. These things aren't really categorically 'superior', that's the thing. But they are kind of assumed in a way that doesn't happen for, say, immigrants.
(I grew up in a council house, not ex. but the african dude above has us both beat. :D)
A framework for understanding poverty: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1929229488/
Crossing the Tracks for Love: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/192922933X/
Hidden Rules of Class at Work: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1929229070/
In particular, she goes in to these very concerns about how on has to change their identity and mindset from their old world to be in the new world.
That baggage is what makes so many upper class people despise being around poor people. It's also why every exclusive club interviews people under the guise of a "cultural fit" policy, or what they sometimes call a "no asshole rule" to avoid criticism, when in reality it's almost always just self-deluded bigotry.
The proof is in how homogeneously upper class, even when otherwise diverse, most "elite" organization are. If they were actually merit based, you would necessarily see incredible diversity in class. Instead, everywhere, you see organizations made up of the wealthy descendants of wealthy people.
I feel terribly sad that I read this statement. Sure, you would want to discard your baggage have a better life for yourself and your family, and increasing your financial wealth will help you get there. However, it should not be the other way around. Becoming wealthy should not because of what you are discarding. Changing does not always means discarding.
I think any time you try to migrate to a different group you wind up leaving things behind. Gain something, lose something.
Which, I don't know, seems OK to me. Accents, clothes, and pop culture references might be dear to people for whom culture is all they have. But to me they hold no value by themselves. I wouldn't, for example, avoid an education just so I can cling to the culture I am currently in.
Also, at least among the people I know, a lot of us come from very different backgrounds. Nobody hides their family and their hometown but none of us can relate to eachother's childhoods, so we just don't talk about it a whole lot. Which is OK too.
Anyway, migrating groups I think is always a surreal experience, as is visiting groups you don't belong to.
It's difficult to understand why. If anything, one should feel great pride to be able to attend an elite school while coming from a less privileged family (even though, being smart because of your genes is basically as random as being born in a rich family, so there shouldn't be any pride or shame either way!!).
The term "inclusiveness" is utter bullshit. (no criticism towards you OP) The idea of "trying to include everyone with diverse backgrounds" was created by top leaders who wanted to prop themselves up even more by characterizing themselves as benevolent stewards. Hint - they're usually not. Let's face reality - we're naturally biased and we still don't have any definitive, scalable way to select (include) other human beings without our short-minded biases blinding us.
The closest I can come is to say that this idea of inclusiveness is terminally broken. It's a sort of bandage over a huge chasm of differences.
For a poor person to become wealthy requires them to discard their baggage. Change the accent, the clothes, the pop culture references, the 'back home...' stories. Avoid the discussions about parents. The list goes on.
My transition into adulthood at present is essentially a game of throwing away my connections to that past. Not intentionally, but because living a double life is just too difficult. Visiting my hometown I feel like more of a tourist each time.
Money is a huge divider, the gulf between the working class and middle classes in this regard is enormous.
I am hardwired to assume that people cannot afford anything. My basic instinct is to design activities that are free.
Wealthier people do not always appreciate this. They might want to go and do something more expensive - and why not? They can.
Friendship groups.
I could waffle on seemingly forever but words can't really express how odd I find all of this.
Different species...