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Re:Disrespect in Education (2014) by kirsebaer on Friday April 03, 2015 @06:45AM (#9315173)
Children should do boring, pointless assignments to teach them "the importance of following orders and doing their job -- even or especially if they don't care about it"?

This doesn't make sense to me. It's dehumanizing to expect people to behave like robots, parts of the machine.

Even if doing a routine, manual job, people should be able to see some point to what they are doing. If it really is pointless (like lots of jobs), they should feel encouraged to speak up.

In the janitor example, cleaning is an important job that people appreciate, the janitor making an important contribution to whatever is going on in the building (hospital, office, etc). But if the janitor is asked to do pointless busywork they should complain.

Re:Disrespect in Education (2014) by gaius on Friday April 03, 2015 @09:21AM (#9315677)
This doesn't make sense to me. It's dehumanizing to expect people to behave like robots, parts of the machine.

Any meaningful activity incorporates a significant amount of drudgery as a prerequisite. It's like the old joke, a man lost in New York asks a passing violinist, how do you get to Carnegie Hall? And the violinist replies, practice. Either you learn this young or you spend your whole life unable to do anything that isn't superficial.

Re:Disrespect in Education (2014) by jostylr on Friday April 03, 2015 @10:46AM (#9316157)
But do you learn the importance of practice from someone saying "Do these problems and you get a gold star?" or by letting someone try to accomplish what they want to do and letting then learn the value of real, thoughtful, purposeful practice for achieving personal success?

Being engaged is a state that many of us want to be in. Failure to grow in ability leads to boredom which is a wonderful negative motivator.

Re:Disrespect in Education (2014) by unoti on Friday April 03, 2015 @02:00PM (#9317347)
Being engaged is terrific. Forcing yourself to do it anyway when it's not fun is at the very heart of professionalism and the pursuit of excellence. Engagement is important, but so is self-discipline.

Consider what Frank Herbert says about this, for example: "So I don't worry about inspiration, or anything like that. It's a matter of just sitting down and working. I have never had the problem of a writing block. I've heard about it. I've felt reluctant to write on some days, for whole weeks, or sometimes even longer. I'd much rather go fishing, for example, or go sharpen pencils, or go swimming, or what not. But, later, coming back and reading what I have produced, I am unable to detect the difference between what came easily and when I had to sit down and say, 'Well, now it's writing time and now I'll write.' There's no difference on paper between the two."[1]

[1] http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Frank_Herbert

Re:Disrespect in Education (2014) by sago on Friday April 03, 2015 @12:47PM (#9316905)
You don't get to Carnegie Hall as a violinist by playing like a robot.

It's amusing in these conversations how quickly some people go from "say no to drugery and busy work" to "but its essential for discipline!", its almost as if they've been inculturated into a pathological system of education.

Re:Disrespect in Education (2014) by thatcat on Friday April 03, 2015 @03:04PM (#9317734)
>"but its essential for discipline!"

the discipline to do what though? To be good at drudgery and busy work would prepare you to face down boredom and learn how to overcome larger bureaucratic barriers to accessing information and to participate in us legal/civil society.

Re:Disrespect in Education (2014) by unoti on Friday April 03, 2015 @02:07PM (#9317399)
Show me a top-tier musician, and I'll show you someone who could write a book about self-discipline, pursuit of excellence, and working hard even when they don't feel like it.
Re:Disrespect in Education (2014) by sago on Friday April 03, 2015 @02:47PM (#9317637)
Right, which just further proves my point.

If you think I or the OP would argue anything else, then you're falling into precisely the trap I identified.

Re:Disrespect in Education (2014) by fnordfnordfnord on Friday April 03, 2015 @09:44AM (#9315800)
Perhaps pointless drudgery isn't the only way to instil discipline.
Re:Disrespect in Education (2014) by gargarplex on Friday April 03, 2015 @07:32AM (#9315284)
"It's dehumanizing to expect people to behave like robots, parts of the machine."

I disagree; I think that being expected to behave like a part of a machine is an essential, defining aspect of the human experience.

Re:Disrespect in Education (2014) by forthefuture on Friday April 03, 2015 @07:50AM (#9315335)
The only problem is that the machine was built 300 years ago and almost no one would agree it works the way it's supposed to. The essential, defining aspect of human experience that you mention was invented by people who had the equivalence of, at best, a modern highschool education. I'd take my chances with contrarianism before I trust dumb old ghosts with my humanity.
Re:Disrespect in Education (2014) by guard-of-terra on Friday April 03, 2015 @08:32AM (#9315466)
"is an essential, defining aspect"

More likely, "was an essential, defining aspect briefly in the XX century".

That century is now over. Before that, you was expected to steer your own judgement while working on a farm (not very machiney experience), and after that, everything that can be replaced by a machine would.

Re:Disrespect in Education (2014) by kd0amg on Friday April 03, 2015 @09:33AM (#9315742)
Wouldn't pre-industrial farming still involve mostly mindless, repetitive work in the fields?
Re:Disrespect in Education (2014) by guard-of-terra on Friday April 03, 2015 @09:56AM (#9315870)
Yes and no. When there's a disturbance in the repetitive work, it's your task to figure out how to fix it. Also, high-level management of the operation (what to plant, when to plant, how much effort to spend on each task) is up to you too. In hilly places rice growing has created the whole new highly custom landscapes.

Compare this to XX century school or factory assembly line where you have no choices.