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Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by crimsonalucard on Sunday March 29, 2015 @12:09AM (#9283837)
An individual with the choice of living in the city or in suburbia is faced with a conundrum. Although you would think that by living in the city the individual will save money by expending significantly less natural resources and dramatically lowering his carbon footprint, it ironically costs him less money to do the exact opposite by living in the suburbs. This is because if the individual chooses to live in the city he must pay an extraordinarily high commission in the form of capital gains or rent to land lords. From a financial standpoint living in the suburbs is the only rational choice.

This type of counterintuitive behavior only occurs because we live in an era where oil is dirt cheap. This is the only time in human history where living farther away from the city is actually cheaper then living closer to it. Before the advent of the automobile, urban infrastructure centered around walkable cities as you will see throughout Europe. One day, as we start running out of oil, the suburbs will become the new ghettos.

Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by cauterized on Sunday March 29, 2015 @10:33AM (#9284927)
In the last decade, that's exactly what's happened in NYC. young college graduates have flooded the city, pushing poorer people to the outskirts, and unlike their parents have not chosen to retreat to the suburbs to raise kids.

One time inner city ghettos like Bushwick, Bed-Stuy, and Crown Heights are gradually being gentrified into middle class neighborhoods. Property values are even rising in what were once the most entrenched slums, like East New York.

Meanwhile, the inner suburbs are beginning to decay as middle class professionals no longer move there to raise families. Low income residents displaced from the inner city are being pushed into these areas where rent is low - but still not saving money because they have to buy a car and pay for gas just to get groceries, and if they take transit to work it's now the 3-10x more expensive commuter rail rather than the affordable subway.

The outer suburbs where McMansions dominate are still thriving, but a few years ago I drove around the middle ring suburb where my dad grew up. In his childhood and even in mine it had been a solidly middle class Levittown clone. Tidy homes and yards, well-kept strip malls, and all. Now it's a textbook example of suburban decay. Entire blocks of houses that desperately need paint jobs and repairs. Deserted parking lots in strip malls with half the storefronts empty and the pavement cracked so badly a small child could get lost in the gaps. Independent businesses boarded up. Old people pushing grocery carts along nearly deserted sidewalks -- probably two or three miles each way to the supermarket. Not a pretty sight.

You see the same in Detroit, among other places. A suburb populated by wealthy or even middle class taxpayers can afford to keep up the infrastructure and economic engine to make it a pleasant place to live. One populated by low income people can't -- it soon becomes unlivable. That's going to be a conundrum for us to solve in this century. I hope we address it by building upwards and expanding public transit to make city-style living affordable again for everyone (which would also be a more efficient use of taxpayer dollars than repaving thousands of miles of roads and keeping up sprawling electric and water/sewer lines in suburbs where people wouldn't live if they could afford the city), but fear we haven't the political will to do so.

Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by ars on Sunday March 29, 2015 @12:17AM (#9283856)
> This is the only time in human history where living farther away from the city is actually cheaper then living closer.

That is not in the slightest true. Your thing about oil is a red herring.

Urban areas (farms back then) were ALWAYS cheaper than cities.

Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by crimsonalucard on Sunday March 29, 2015 @12:06PM (#9285321)
Think about the lifestyle we have today. If I live on the farm and work on the farm then yes it's cheaper. But I'm talking about suburbia, in which most people live outside the city but drive into the city to work everyday. That's a huge energy cost that can only be paid for through oil.

Perhaps this statement is more clear: Due to cheap oil this is the only time in history where living outside the city and driving miles and miles to work everyday is cheaper then living in the city right next to work.

Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by BrainInAJar on Sunday March 29, 2015 @01:05AM (#9283950)
Only short-term. Once you factor in gas, ownership of multiple cars, etc it's cheaper to live in the city. Doubly so if your time isn't worthless (time sitting in traffic is working for free)
Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by javert on Sunday March 29, 2015 @01:18AM (#9283982)
As an American who prefers rural living, I prefer not living in a city because my time is valuable. I like being able to go from A to B at 60 miles and hour and not worry about parking. I don't like waiting for busses or subways.

I think suburban living is generally going to be less time-consuming than urban living unless you're doing something dumb, like communting into Los Angles or Washington, D.C.

Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by jmspring on Sunday March 29, 2015 @02:02AM (#9284057)
I'd love rural living, but I've opted for a walkable suburb on the coast. My current job allows me to work at home full time unless I am traveling, and my wife commutes but has a flexible schedule and gets to work at home regularly.

There are times where the diversity of a city would be great, but I don't like the noise, traffic, or public transportation.

In the bay area, BART is ok, Caltrain isn't bad, but Muni? Oy.

Just coming back from a business trip to Tokyo (my first time here), I can see how public transport can be very efficient. That said, even here, I got to over hear some google employees whining about their offices being moved to an area that was mostly business park and not wanting to commute.

No matter where you choose to live, there are personal choices that are part of the calculus.

Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by eropple on Monday March 30, 2015 @01:33AM (#9287808)
It doesn't sound to me like you know urban living all that well at all. In Somerville, MA, I can get anywhere I want to go--stores, work, play, downtown Boston--in thirty minutes by foot or bus or train. I do not worry about places to park, nor do I worry about traffic.

I can, on the other hand, speak to suburban living being as alienating as anything I've ever encountered. Sitting in a car, alone, for an hour a day to go to and from work--time I couldn't spend doing anything of use, be it reading or working or talking to a friend--was the most soul-killing time of my life.

Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by crimsonalucard on Sunday March 29, 2015 @03:30PM (#9286136)
It depends. I think this is true when you don't factor in cost per square footage of property. Imagine taking the immense square footage of suburban houses and plopping it in the middle of Manhattan, then living there. Unaffordable.

However if living space isn't as a big of an issue, there is definitely a sweet spot where you can find smaller spaces that make living in the city cheaper then suburban life.

Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by enjo on Sunday March 29, 2015 @12:18AM (#9283859)
I'm not following. Capital gains?
Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by crimsonalucard on Sunday March 29, 2015 @12:18PM (#9285372)
Sorry shouldn't have wrote that. Capital gains represents income a person gains simply from owning an asset. No GDP or work is produced by that person yet by simply owning assets he gets money. Rent is a form of this.
Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by javert on Sunday March 29, 2015 @01:20AM (#9283986)
Unlikely we'll run out of oil in the foreseeable future.
Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by cauterized on Monday March 30, 2015 @07:13AM (#9288752)
We're not going to run out entirely, but we are going to exhaust the purest and most accessible sources. As a result, extraction and refinement costs are expected to rise as a proportion of the production cost, forcing up the price of the end product.
Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by crimsonalucard on Sunday March 29, 2015 @01:01PM (#9285551)
Hard to say. I can't find any reliable/definitive metric on this topic.
Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by hayksaakian on Sunday March 29, 2015 @12:28AM (#9283875)
what if electric cars (tesla, nissan leaf, etc.) get more popular?

then you can separate the source of energy from the consumer of energy.

Re:Suburban sprawl is stifling the US economy by crimsonalucard on Sunday March 29, 2015 @12:56PM (#9285528)
Shifting power consumption away from gasoline onto the grid is definitely more efficient. However a significant amount of our grid is still powered by fossil fuels. It will depend on whether or not renewable sources have the capacity to support a car economy.