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Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by marssaxman on Thursday March 26, 2015 @04:22PM (#9272802)
I don't download apps, and I make a point of never entering google account credentials into an Android phone. I don't trust Google, and I don't trust app developers; the whole ecosystem seems designed more to exploit than to serve the end-user. So I just use my phone for SMS, and for killing time browsing the web while I wait for a bus or whatever.
Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by rhizome31 on Thursday March 26, 2015 @05:03PM (#9273112)
I used to do the same until I broke my smartphone and found that I wasn't missing it at all. Now I use a clamshell phone someone gave me. It's very lightweight, compact, robust and it can last about ten days without being recharged. Sometimes, having an internet-connected device with me would be nice, but I don't find this occasional need worth the hassle of maintaining a smartphone.
Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by marssaxman on Thursday March 26, 2015 @05:39PM (#9273321)
I still have fond feelings for my Motorola V195, which I accidentally left plugged in to charge at the San Francisco airport a decade or so back.

I'm occasionally tempted to try building my own device, with a QWERTY keyboard, 320x240 monochrome LCD, and hardcoded apps for SMS and email. It would be big and clunky but it would be kind of nice to have a gadget that did exactly what I wanted.

Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by nitrogen on Friday March 27, 2015 @12:30AM (#9274769)
I still have fond feelings for my Motorola V195, which I accidentally left plugged in to charge at the San Francisco airport a decade or so back.

I've learned that it helps to keep charging devices in one's carry-on bag.

Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by calbear81 on Thursday March 26, 2015 @04:57PM (#9273069)
I'm not sure I follow. What specifically about apps would make you think it's designed to exploit the user? I know Android apps are more likely to be ad-supported (hence YOU are the product) but looking at my iPhone, I have Instagram for taking photos and sharing it with my family/friends, Lyft to get rides around the city when I don't want to drive, Dropbox for automatically backing up my photos, Google Maps for Navigation and OpenTable for booking restaurant reservations so I don't have to call them and ask for times they are available and wait on hold forever.

Seems to me that in all of these cases, there is clear benefit to me and serves my needs as the end-user.

Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by marssaxman on Thursday March 26, 2015 @05:29PM (#9273267)
I can't see or control what information gets sent where. I don't know what gets logged and sent to Google. I refrain from using Google credentials on the phone in case that makes it harder for Google to correlate what happens on my phone with my activity on the web in general. I disable the location services in case that makes it more difficult for someone to watch my location and movements. I don't know if it helps because there is no way I know about to find out what is being logged or where it is being sent.

App permissions seem to be completely coarse-grained, and they all seem to need access to potentially huge amounts of personal data. I can't, so far as I know, disable their access to specific bits of data I don't want them to have; nor do I know of any mechanism for blacklisting or whitelisting access to specific internet hosts.

My Moto X decided a while back that it wanted to upgrade itself and started bringing up a nag screen at frequent intervals, interrupting whatever I was doing. There is no way I can discover to turn this off, and there is no way to decline the upgrade. It just kept nagging me, many times a day, for months. I can't disable this behavior; I can only choose between reduced functionality (getting interrupted mid-sentence and having to dismiss a dialog many times a day) or letting this remote server take over and install its software on my hardware.

In the end I feel like this device doesn't actually belong to me at all. It's more like a rental apartment: I can use it, and I can keep my stuff in it if I want to, but ultimately it belongs to the landlord; which in this case is a combination of Google, Motorola, and T-Mobile. The deal seems pretty clear: they get to decide what I am allowed to do with my phone, they get to decide where my information goes and who gets to see it, and I can either accept the deal or not use the phone. For the most part I have chosen the latter.

Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by apayan on Thursday March 26, 2015 @06:24PM (#9273560)
You might enjoy using CyanogenMod on your phone. No google account required, and it gives you a lot more control over Android.
Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by calbear81 on Thursday March 26, 2015 @06:17PM (#9273523)
Thanks for providing more context and I can understand your perspective as a privacy-minded individual.

I think for most people, privacy is secondary to convenience and we basically sell data about ourselves in exchange for free use of these services that have become an essential part of our life.

I also think it's extremely hard to piece-meal control what permissions are allowed and requires substantially more work from app developers to consider all the possible conditional cases and have well thought out experiences when some/all pieces of data are missing. In many cases, it's just a matter of what is practical and doable in light of constrained resources. Not giving them a pass, but offering a possible reason instead of assuming malicious intent.

Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by WorldWideWayne on Thursday March 26, 2015 @05:31PM (#9273277)
Clearly there are benefits to these apps, but the concern was about exploiting the user.

Presumably, the chief concerns are tracking and security. For instance, why does DropBox need to access my entire contact list just to backup my photos? Some people don't even think about it, others don't care but some do.

Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by calbear81 on Thursday March 26, 2015 @06:11PM (#9273483)
Does Dropbox ask for that? On my phone, I don't have to give DropBox access to my contact list to use it.

I think one of the challenges is that a lot of what an app maker wants to do is not known yet but they want to mine the user data to identify patterns that might help them decide on what features to build next or provide insight on how they should improve their app. Given this, they err on the side of asking for more data vs. less. On a mobile device, this definitely feels much more invasive given that our phones are basically "tied at the hip" when compared to classic web tracking techniques.

Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by ams6110 on Thursday March 26, 2015 @05:21PM (#9273225)
I created a separate google identity for use on my phone. I never use it for anything else.
Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by rogerbinns on Thursday March 26, 2015 @05:36PM (#9273303)
What makes you think this anonymises you? Even if you have turned off everything on the phone (eg location services), the sheer quantity of tracking on web pages will quickly carve you out an identity. (Note that they don't necessarily need to have your name, but you will exist in many databases along with everything you have done.) The same applies if you have installed apps. Doing something like frequent factory resets of the phone would help, but ideally you'd want really deep ones that randomise the various internal ids.
Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by marssaxman on Thursday March 26, 2015 @05:40PM (#9273333)
I don't believe that it anonymizes me, for certain, though I hope it might help. I'm certainly not going to make their job any easier than I have to.
Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by rogerbinns on Thursday March 26, 2015 @06:45PM (#9273664)
To clarify "they" don't actually care who your identity is. While it is really important to you, knowing that you are John Smith of 123 Main Street isn't that useful to them.

Knowing that "you" (your browser) looked at buying a car last week is far more valuable, especially when combined with other activity and demographic guesses. ie rather than a solid individual, your database records are a set of probabilities. Looked at diapers - probably have a kid. Looked at concert tickets for One Direction - you are likely young and very unlikely old. Combine all these anonymous snippets and probabilities and the database representation of you is then "exploited".

The goal is relevancy. Advertising pays on results, which means the advertisers don't want to pay for things going to people that aren't the targets. eg if they have a campaign aimed at females 20-30 years old that have children in North Texas, then they aren't going to pay for ads going to 60 year old men in Seattle. And if it is a car company, then ads going to people who are likely to buy a car in the near future is far more valuable than a kid playing Angry Birds. (There is also brand advertising where the idea is to keep a brand in your head and good feelings about it, but no immediate action expected of you. They find out if this works by doing it in some areas and not others, and then tracking sales etc over the longer term.)

In theory this should lead to you get good relevant to your interests advertising. In practise it is annoying drivel to many because the companies advertising (ie the ones paying) aren't relevant to you. They are trying to get your attention.

While I only mention advertising, the other pieces especially tracking are pretty much in support of the advertising. It allows the probabilistic deductions about you.

To avoid this you would need to eliminate Internet activity, or go completely anonymous (eg only using Tor, incognito browser sessions, and have components on your system constantly make up data like user agents and locations).

BTW you can see what Google has guessed about you at https://www.google.com/ads/preferences/ which works even if you aren't signed in.

Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by patcon on Friday March 27, 2015 @12:17AM (#9274734)
Baseband aside (a big "aside"), isn't the mobile permissions system much more satisfactory than the desktop? unprivileged user-per-app vs everything-as-one-user-and-sometimes-we-ask-for-root
Re:Most of Us Don’t Download Any Smartphone Apps at All by marssaxman on Friday March 27, 2015 @12:22PM (#9277225)
It's a step in the right direction; it just isn't much of a step. Ultimately I think we need a fine-grained capability system, where every process runs in a sandbox which can only see the resources I choose to grant it. Access to the specific hosts ought to be resources... and I should be able to provide dummy resources so that recalcitrant apps which refuse to run without the ability to call home can be run in an environment equivalent to a "hellban".