That removes me from the market.

I use those keys incessantly, browsing the web and coding both.

I bought a very large Asus gaming laptop primarily for this reason, and I'm very fond of the placement, as well (above the numpad, can be easily found without looking).

Other things that are important to me is a gap to be able to feel F5 without looking, and same for the arrow keys. So many keyboards put the arrow keys--which require a hand movement--inline with other keys without making them distinct. At the very least put a nub on the up key or something.

> That removes me from the market.

Same. And what kind of developer edition laptop doesn't have a full keyboard, i.e. a numpad? It drives me nuts.

The kind where they want the keyboard to be centered on the machine. I hate number pads on laptops because then the keyboard is off center. I can't really think of anything that would actually make it a feature worth the shift.

Different strokes, I guess.

What do you use the numpad for when developing? Just curious because I actually prefer keyboards that don't have it to save desk space

One that is not 13". This is meant to be a compact machine, not a desktop replacement.

I have an older xps 13, which has the same keyboard layout as the m3800. I actually really like stacking page up/down, home, and end on the arrow keys. I use keyboard shortcuts as much as possible and can hit these very quickly. The function key right next to the left control key in conjunction with these works very well for me. It took a few days to get used to, but I love it now. Certainly much better than some of the other more funky positioning of dedicated keys on some keyboards.

I've spent plenty of time on keyboards without them (largely macs) and I still hate it. My old Toshiba laptop (z830 -- a 14" laptop, no less) just has them in a straight line along the right edge of the keyboard and that works just fine and doesn't require me to use two hands to do something that should be one finger. Again, it's not like there's some lack of space on this and other 15" laptops.

"It's not that hard to..." arguments are basically admitting defeat before the debate begins. I could probably get used to a 5 key chording keyboard if I tried, but I don't think it would enrich my life.

And I don't care for the independent keys on the top row. It's a stretch with how often I use them. My argument isn't "It's not that hard to...", it's "I prefer this." Different (key)strokes.

Not along the top row. As a column down the side. http://blog.laptopmag.com/wpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/...

As for "different (key)strokes", I wouldn't have an issue if the choice to have these as independent keys were still around, but right now if you want that you have very limited choice. Hence my distaste for the trend.

They are super-imposed over the arrow keys. Fn+Up = PgUp, Fn+Left = End, etc...

I have the previous year's model and it did take some getting used to.

Or a second windows key. Or separate mouse buttons. Sigh

>> Or separate mouse buttons.

I find that part to be the most annoying part of touch pads on non-Mac laptops these days. I get that Apple has the reputation for having the best pads (which makes them an ideal source for copying ideas), but I've always hated the clicking mechanism on my Macbook Pro, especially when it came to right clicks.

My Lenovo Y50 at least doesn't require a second finger to right click, but I would rather have had two discrete, tactile buttons for the pad.

> ... especially when it came to right clicks

Just curious, do you have secondary click set to click with two fingers, or to click in bottom right corner?

I'm admittedly clumsy and imprecise with touch pads, so neither option works well for me.

On my Mac, I had it set to the default, which was two fingers. On my Lenovo, it's set to click in the bottom right half. I keep missing (because I don't look down) and click the bottom left half by mistake.

Why do people use a second windows button? I've never understood how it is useful.

I like to remap those keys to AltGr and/or compose. Makes it much easier to type accents, proper punctuation…

On my mac, I use the right command key to one hand commands which require it and something on the right right keyboard. Very useful

>> Why do people use a second windows button?

It's useful to people who prefer to (or are conditioned to) hit it with their right hand.

Because they're copying Apple's keyboard.

I never use those keys personally. I guess because I use vi bindings wherever possible.

Bizarre, I actually like the apple or hhk Fn-arrows way.

because you can just press space/shift+space.

Pressing space in a text editor tends to add a space. Pressing pgdn doesn't.

C-v and M-v in Emacs and friends and CTRL+b and CTRL+d in vi and clones.

EDIT: and if you were fine with reaching for PgDn then SHIFT+up, SHIFT+down in vim is probably a viable option as well.

Great. Now not only do I have to use two keys in everything to do it, it's a different pair of keys in everything! Man, what I've been missing all these years having separate keys for this.

(Yes, I know fn+arrow does them the same in more or less everything as well)