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Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by Mahn on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @11:50AM (#9145531)
Despite the click-bait title, the article makes valid points which are very often overlooked or downright ignored by hardcore bitcoiners. As someone who's been watching bitcoin for the past few years, this is in my opinion the plain reality.
Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by lsadam0 on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @12:19PM (#9145751)
The problem with that article is not that it makes 0 valid points, it's that it makes some terrible correlations as an attempt to prove cryptos won't be huge.

What does a scammer selling unlicensed shares in porn production have anything to do with the success or failure of cryptocurrency? Bitcoin was simply the method of payment, nothing more.

That example is immediately followed with the eBay + TicketMaster examples and the importance of centralized reputation/trust. The leap is then made to "...drug dealers establish reputation through their PGP key or BitCoin address". Ok, an objectively factual statement. The author proceeds to go off the rails with the assertion that only criminals value decentralized trust. Please.

You know why I would prefer a decentralized trustful solution like OpenBazaar? Because eBay bends me over with fees. In fact, they double dip. And there's nothing I can do about it.

It's not about illegal use cases. It's about empowerment of the individual over seemingly insurmountable institutions. The author is having the wrong discussion.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by post- on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @12:56PM (#9146021)
> The problem with that article is not that it makes 0 valid points, it's that it makes some terrible correlations as an attempt to prove cryptos won't be huge.

Actually, the article doesn't set out "to prove cryptos won't be huge," and ends on a crypto-positive note:

> Bitcoin has shown us the promise of blockchain technologies despite its design shortcomings.

> The future of the technology will probably evolve towards a model that more resembles real world needs, rather than the needs of “cyberpunks”.

To diverge from the article a bit and respond to your final point, I don't know that the mantra of individual empowerment in the Bitcoin world amounts to anything other than solipsism. Bitcoin, as far as I can tell, ignores structural biases preventing people from accessing the cryptocurrency. We can see evidence of this in the "Bitcoin in Africa" startups, which on the surface seem benign and even benevolent, but are hiding an uninterrogated colonialism: their chief assumption, it seems to me, is that the developed world will always control more of Bitcoin's limited resources, and the value of spreading a small portion of those resources to the developing world comes from lock-in. It's a classic unfair trade agreement, and it doesn't take much thought to see how problematic this situation can become.

eBay can bend you over with fees because they control the market; Bitcoin's limited resources are susceptible to the same kind of market control. That's the discussion I wish more people were having.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by ynd on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @03:50PM (#9147238)
Bitcoin is not susceptible to market control like eBay. eBay is a single entity so it is easy to coordinate self-serving decision. Bitcoin is multiple agents that have to co-operate. That prevents any one agent from making unilateral decisions.

Another huge difference is that anybody can become a new agent in Bitcoin. You just buy the hardware. You cannot influence or join eBay in the same way.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by Frondo on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @03:11PM (#9146984)
I like your ideas about the colonial aspects of Bitcoin in the developing world. That is an angle I haven't heard anyone else mention before. It pairs nicely with another critique I don't often see, that Bitcoin is undemocratic; there are economic assumptions baked in that, if it were a government-backed money, people could discuss, vote on, and ultimately change. With bitcoin, there is no way that the people whose lives could be affected by those assumptions can have a say in them--the design and operation of bitcoin doesn't answer to the people in a democratic way.
Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by innguest on Friday March 06, 2015 @11:04AM (#9157702)
That Bitcoin is undemocratic is a good thing. Look around in the world at what democracy has done to currency. Not a single democratic currency has withstood the test of time. It's time for a different approach.
Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by Frondo on Saturday March 07, 2015 @02:57PM (#9162896)
I am unable to agree with the statement, "It is time for an undemocratic approach to money".
Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by innguest on Sunday March 08, 2015 @04:12AM (#9164986)
I want an undemocratic currency and I don't want to forbid you from using a democratic currency if you prefer it. I doubt those that like you, who are unable to agree with the statement above, will willingly extend the same courtesy to those like me, who disagree with that statement.

I wonder which group might be in possession of the right idea, the group saying "you don't have to use it if you don't like it" or the group that is already forcing the new currency to be under the same democratic rules of the old, "democratic" currency.

Statism, ideas so good we have to force them on people.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by aminok on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @06:08PM (#9148059)
There's nothing wrong with the developed world providing a service to the developing world. It's a symbiotic relationship, as both are better off from the arrangement. Mining farms in the developed world giving Somalians in the developing world a secure currency that can't be expropriated, and lets them receive international remittance at a fraction of the fees they paid before, is a good thing.

With respect to fairness, what's important is the characteristics of the framework within which the resource is used, that enable rent-seeking. With Bitcoin, each individual is their own bank. They control their own private key, meaning access to money is not intermediated by rent-seeking third parties with their lock-ins and closed networks.

Mining is ultra-competitive, because there are no barriers to market entry to the open mining network, ensuring transaction fees are driven down to the maximum extent possible. The algorithmic money supply ensures that no powerful organization and its host of satellite institutions can inflate the currency on a perpetual basis, to slowly the tax the people over generations.

Any way you look at it, Bitcoin is a force for distributing power and control, by eliminating the roles of rent-seekers.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by ForHackernews on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @01:08PM (#9146118)
> What does a scammer selling unlicensed shares in porn production have anything to do with the success or failure of cryptocurrency?

Because it demonstrates dramatically that one of the main purported advantages of bitcoin (its "trustless" nature) is comically false. As you say, bitcoin is just a payment method, and contrary to what its advocates claim, it does absolutely nothing to prevent shady scams or eliminate the need for good regulations and strong enforcement.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by lsadam0 on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @01:51PM (#9146414)
No. You're conflating the trust-less nature of bitcoin with the idea that individuals who possess Bitcoin are trustful.

The very nature of Bitcoin lies on the assertion that no individual is trustful, and that a trustful network can arise in which no individual node is trusted.

The blockchain allows us to verify that a particular operation has occurred. For example, the blockchain will verify that a particular address owns 1 BTC, or that 1 BTC has transferred from one address to another. It provides reliable, verifiable unit of account without relying on any one actor to be trustful.

The blockchain absolutely does NOT verify that a person won't lie to you to get your money, or that they won't blow it all in casino once you send it to them. That would be an unbelievable miracle, as it would require knowledge of the future.

No rational person has ever claimed the blockchain will prevent scamming. Quite the opposite in fact.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by ForHackernews on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @04:21PM (#9147447)
Maybe you should clue in the rest of the bitcoin community, e.g. http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1f2ubh/why_bitcoins...

> 3) No fraud or charge-back (from a seller/business PoV).

> 13a) Potentially, because of the profit from no fraud and the deflationary nature of Bitcoin. Vendors will realise they can lower their prices for Btc purchases. And when inflation ends, due to no fraud, they will still be able to have lower prices than competitors.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by lsadam0 on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @04:33PM (#9147503)
The OP, BitcoinJobe, goes on in the comments of your link to clarify the statement is that there are not fraudulent chargebacks in Bitcoin. He's right. There aren't. You can't make a bitcoin purchase, receive the item, and then get your money back through a charge back. He's right on both points.

Fraudulent chargebacks are a legitimate concern for sellers, and I assure you that loss is reflected in the selling price you and I pay. 13a asserts that if a vendor is able to eliminate the chargeback problem through bitcoin use, then the savings can possibly be passed on to consumers.

What's insane about any of that? You're not comprehending what you're arguing against.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by ForHackernews on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @09:18PM (#9148839)
Maybe you should read more carefully.

> No fraud OR charge-back

Strongly implies those to be two different things. You write "Fraudulent chargebacks", talking about a single thing, a specific kind (fraudulent) of chargeback. You also neglect to mention that bitcoin eliminates fraudulent chargebacks by just not having chargebacks at all. Which is a bit like celebrating North Korea eliminating voter fraud.

This kind of thing is everywhere in the bitcoin community: Make absurd, grandiose claims ("be your own bank!", "bitcoin is the future of money", "totally decentralized!" [except for the giant central ledger of all transactions]). And then whenever you get called out on it, you'll retreat to some more limited, defensible argument, and claim that's what you were really talking about all along.

There's a name for this kind of rhetoric, it's a "motte-and-bailey" argument: http://philpapers.org/archive/SHATVO-2.pdf

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by valarauca1 on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @12:45PM (#9145934)
>You know why I would prefer a decentralized trustful solution like OpenBazaar? Because eBay bends me over with fees. In fact, they double dip. And there's nothing I can do about it.

This is a problem a trust-less system wouldn't solve, inherently. The real problem is ebay lacks competition.

>It's not about illegal use cases. It's about empowerment of the individual over seemingly insurmountable institutions.

Again competition. You want people to have the power to compete, and have options.

>The author is having the wrong discussion.

Yes you are. None of the problems you listed are solve by decentralized trustless systems. Their consumer service problems. Which any company, or system can have.

:.:.:

Ultimately you commit the same sins you argue the blog post commits.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by stcredzero on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @01:03PM (#9146076)
You know why I would prefer a decentralized trustful solution like OpenBazaar? Because eBay bends me over with fees. In fact, they double dip. And there's nothing I can do about it.

Isn't that why established players will mostly prefer not to use decentralized currency? Won't the network effect always relegate things like Bitcoin to the fringes?

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by dmihal on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @06:12PM (#9148080)
Market leaders don't have as much incentive to adopt Bitcoin, but competitors do

Look at Amazon and Overstock. Amazon doesn't need to implement Bitcoin to be successful, but Overstock was able gain some market share by accepting it

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by sida on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @11:53AM (#9145555)
And in Bitcoinland, objections against Bitcoin are also often flagged as trolling, and dismissed immediately
Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by etchalon on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @12:04PM (#9145624)
There is definitely a pervasive culture within cryptos of people either "getting it" or "not".

It's a bit disturbing.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by lsadam0 on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @12:23PM (#9145773)
I believe both sides of the aisle hold some responsibility for this disconnect. Detractors of cryptocurrency often like to cite the shady world of BitCoin securities, just like this article does.

However, that's not a valid criticism. BTC functioned only as the method of payment. You can't criticize the future utility of a technology based upon how someone has misused it. If that were the case, we should ban the Internet.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by etchalon on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @01:07PM (#9146110)
Generally though, the issue is mentioned in a broader context than just "someone did a bad thing with the internet", and more that the community behind Bitcoin, and the libertarian philosophies which guide it, give rise to the scams and dark market uses of the currency.

When evaluating and discussing any technology, you're absolutely right: it is unfair to criticize it based on a few bad examples.

However, it is fair to look at a technology and consider whether the "legal" outweigh the "illegal" ones, and if not, why.

The author makes this point succinctly.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by Retra on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @07:15PM (#9148418)
I think the bigger picture here is that there is a serious worry that bitcoin will benefit those who participate in illegal activities far more than those who do not -- that it offers an advantage that most legal activities don't require or value heavily.
Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by lsadam0 on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @08:04PM (#9148621)
I must give you credit, this is very well said. This is a legitimate concern. I feel as though this is what others have been attempting to say when using the "illegal activities" argument.
Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by valarauca1 on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @12:09PM (#9145672)
This is true for the cultures surrounding most things I'd postulate. A large majority who support it, largely blindly but dismiss valid arguments against with suspicion, and a smaller minority who actually understand counter arguments, but believe, or hold a complex opinion.
Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by philh on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @12:23PM (#9145779)
Often it goes both ways. Of the people who oppose it, most do so blindly and dismiss valid arguments in favor, while a minority understand the arguments well enough to reply to them.

Ninety percent of opinions are crap.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by kordless on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @12:54PM (#9145999)
We are discussing trust. It's obvious that one trusts or not, so why is it surprising we see it mirrored in a group of people discussing trust? Answer: It's not.
Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by shillster on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @12:37PM (#9145878)
As jordon0day just wrote in an unrelated thread, "we have plenty of evidence that people are really bad at being suspicious of the often unreliable stuff they read on the internet"

I think this is a group that is highly sensitive to face value of statements people make and when someone makes an uninformed remark, their entirely argument is cast aside. Dissent is welcomed, but it needs to be backed by a solid justification.

Re:Why the practical applications of Bitcoin will be limited by CyberDildonics on Wednesday March 04, 2015 @03:07PM (#9146958)
It isn't really a valid point to say that income for miners must increase, since if miners aren't making money they will drop out and increase the profit for others.