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Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by justcommenting on Thursday February 12, 2015 @08:30PM (#9042385)
so access to knowledge--most of which, it's worth noting, is massively subsidized by taxpayers in the form of grants and related overhead--is a luxury good?

that's not a world i want to live in; access to knowledge is foundational infrastructure.

Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by wyager on Thursday February 12, 2015 @09:03PM (#9042491)
If you want widespread knowledge, don't make it impossible to give knowledge away for free.
Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by handojin on Friday February 13, 2015 @12:35AM (#9043067)
Nobody is making it impossible. People are asking (by means of the public courts, as is their right) for equal access to that knowledge.
Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by wyager on Friday February 13, 2015 @12:57AM (#9043111)
>People are asking (by means of the public courts, as is their right) for equal access to that knowledge.

"Equal access" is not free. If universities are given the choice of not providing free educational resources and paying shit-tons of money to provide free educational resources accessible to every random group that sues the university over the way these free materials are presented, universities will obviously choose not to offer free educational resources.

Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by handojin on Friday February 13, 2015 @01:52AM (#9043228)
You are arguing from an abstract position. The universities in question have already chosen to provide free educational resources and are now being sued to provide a reasonable accommodation to allow a subset of the population access to those resources under the aegis of the law.

Old joke:

A marxist economist meets a market economist at a conference. After listening to an exposition on Smith and Hayek he nods vigorously and says "Yes, yes! I know it works in fact but does it work in theory?"

Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by new299 on Friday February 13, 2015 @05:44AM (#9043719)
Just to clarify the position you're arguing for. A university has a bunch of existing videos that have been taken of lectures. Someone asks "can I put these online for free?". The answer should be no you can't unless you're willing to have them all transcribed.

I suppose it rests on the definition of reasonable accommodation which could range anywhere from "making the material available for transcription" to "full professional subtitles should be made available".

Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by sp332 on Friday February 13, 2015 @09:55AM (#9044588)
I think the law applies to new videos that are created for distribution online. I don't think it applies to videos created before the ADA was passed that are put online now. Or a private conversation that was published.
Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by hga on Friday February 13, 2015 @10:25AM (#9044762)
"I don't think it applies to videos created before the ADA was passed that are put online now."

It sure was applied to buildings that were built before the ADA was passed.

And what videos of interest would those be? Ableson and Sussman's SICP/6.001 lectures come to mind, and some Feynman lectures I assume are that old.

"Or a private conversation that was published."

Well, aren't we about to find that out in the legal arena?

You're only escape is "private", which suggests it should not be published at all. Especially in a two-party consent state like Massachusetts.

Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by sp332 on Friday February 13, 2015 @10:32AM (#9044802)
A building is not a video. An older private residence does not have to be upgraded to be ADA-compliant. A video which is intended for mass distribution should have some effort put into accessibility.
Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by maxharris on Friday February 13, 2015 @05:17AM (#9043675)
for equal access to that knowledge

That's according to a narrow view of "equal access."

Many people (if not a majority) have an entirely different definition "equal access." On this view, simply putting text or a video up on the Internet without captions is providing equal access: everyone is equally free to download and make use of that information, to the best of their ability.

If I am free to publish a video on my own accord without captions, shouldn't I be free to do the same with a video I've made with a group of my friends? And if this is the case, why not a group of my colleagues? Present law aside, I don't see why should I lose my right to do something just because I'm doing it as part of a group.

Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by pbhjpbhj on Friday February 13, 2015 @07:31AM (#9043981)
>"I don't see why should I lose my right to do something just because I'm doing it as part of a group" (maxharris) //

Just taking this and doing an analysis ...

A) The initial premise is that: one should make reasonable allowances, eg of low cost, to accommodate those who might otherwise be excluded from society in some way due to accident, genetics, medical conditions and such.

B) The subsidiary premise is that: this allowance should be provided as a legal right to those who would otherwise be disproportionately excluded from society.

I don't think that argument holds water against this initial premise. A group has more resources. Making multimedia content accessible isn't required of individuals because it's proportionally excessive. In the same way a small store might not be expected to fit a wheelchair ramp but a supermarket would be expected to (indeed floor level access would probably be stipulated at the planning stage if it weren't already by the supermarket corp).

To put it a different way: if one child comes up to you and asks for food out of a genuine need, you've got a truck full of food. You're probably going to feel morally obligated to feed them. Now suppose a whole country comes to you and says they need food. With that same amount of food you're not going to feel morally obligated.

So, it seems there is some cut off at which the available resources compared to the size of the problem make a difference. I think that is enshrined in the ADA in USA and certainly is in the DDA in UK law.

The final element then in the OP is that (C) Harvard and MIT have the resources and so should also carry the obligation.

I think this is actually where I don't agree. That whilst as a whole they have the resources, for this project they do not. The allocated resources for this project mean that if the obligation were applied to make release of videos require captions and braille transcripts and such that the means available would not be sufficient to continue the project.

An analogue question might be: Does a chain of tiny convenience stores have an obligation to put in wheelchair ramps in some stores even though for the specific store it would be an excessive cost relative to their income.

tl;dr I think it comes down to compartmentalisation of the institutions.

[Perhaps maxharris you're right but just need to present your argument differently?]

Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by wolfgke on Friday February 13, 2015 @08:47AM (#9044241)
Why don't they simply set up a wiki for creating subtitles collaboratively?
Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by A_COMPUTER on Thursday February 12, 2015 @08:58PM (#9042477)
Considering that the course materials in question used to only be accessible to a very small subset of very smart people who happen to have a very large money to afford tuition at MIT/Harvard, yes, that particular material is a luxury good.
Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by threatofrain on Thursday February 12, 2015 @11:08PM (#9042816)
The legal implications go to many schools, so I don't think we're talking about luxury in the context of two elite schools. I think we're talking about the inclusion of minority populations in publicly funded institutions of education, and just how much we want them in our society. Perhaps we do, perhaps we don't, perhaps it's somewhere midway.
Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by growupkids on Friday February 13, 2015 @05:05AM (#9043644)
Neither MIT nor Harvard are public schools, they are both private.
Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by threatofrain on Friday February 13, 2015 @07:40AM (#9044010)
Yes, but they accept federal and state money, just like when the UC's accepted federal money and decided to submit on the issue of military recruiters on campus, because getting federal funds is voluntary and to the nearly arbitrary discretion of the executive branch.

However, I do think that there should be more mechanism than the purse to persuade institutions to make material accessible to disabled populations -- but for major institutions only, since I'm not sure smaller organizations can cope with the burden. Perhaps organizations above some revenue?

Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by wnoise on Friday February 13, 2015 @06:52AM (#9043880)
They both takes tons of government money (admittedly, for research, rather than teaching.)
Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by pbhjpbhj on Friday February 13, 2015 @07:06AM (#9043916)
Doesn't that parenthetical comment destroy the rest of the [small sub-]argument: because you paid someone for doing research doesn't mean that if they decide to make something else free to access that you have a right to make further demands of them.

If central government just gave them a stipend and didn't specify the projects it was to be used on then the argument you're supporting would perhaps have some mileage; but it's payment for a specific service. If the schools aren't making their research centres accessible or are unnecessarily excluding disabled people [from research related tasks/benefits/etc.] then, yes, this argument would be valid.

Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by stolio on Thursday February 12, 2015 @09:02PM (#9042487)
There are different levels of accessibility. The courses are still there, there isn't an audio captcha making sure deaf people can't read the notes, read the book (when available) or do the problem sets. This is nothing like an inaccessible sidewalk keeping somebody in a wheelchair from getting to the grocery store.

And I'm only talking about MIT's OCW here, their edX courses are all captioned. OCW was scheduled to run out of funding last year[0] and they apparently don't even have the funds to update their FAQ. I'm just saying you have to pick your battles.

[0] - http://ocw.mit.edu/donate/why-donate/#q5

Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by justcommenting on Thursday February 12, 2015 @09:38PM (#9042602)
As a longtime OCW donor myself, I definitely hear you but would still say we still have miles to go until we've made OCW accessible to all. I could see how OCW might not feel very open to the blind and deaf.

I never said I supported the lawsuit or even its goals; but ignoring accessibility shortcomings for certain groups because of financial or other barriers sort of misses the point of aiming to make knowledge accessible to all.

edit: just noticed sensory references in first paragraph

Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by hga on Thursday February 12, 2015 @10:04PM (#9042675)
One problem is that, unless you're a deaf teacher, it was not in OCW's remit to make it's offering accessible to you.

Now that OCW has run out of its original block of money and is passing around its hat, that could of course change, then again it shows every sign of being only a step away from maintenance mode right now (all the mojo is presumably with edX, which OCW obviously helped to blaze a path to).

So it this "ignoring", or simply a trade-off in the face of limited resources? If you want the properly captioned option, what are you willing to give up to achieve that?

Re:Harvard and M.I.T. Sued Over Failing to Caption Online Co... by justcommenting on Thursday February 12, 2015 @11:42PM (#9042896)
What I want OCW to be and what OCW set out to accomplish are not necessarily the same things, so in a bunch of ways it's unfair for me to have expectations that don't comport with theirs.

But for me personally, accessibility seems like something worth raising separate streams of funding for if it weren't terribly popular. In sort of the same way, I would've been thrilled if my donations to EFF could've been earmarked for their WIPO Treaty for the Blind work.

I understand the need to make trade-offs and don't begrudge OCW for the ones they've made, but I don't really see having to spend extra money for captioning, etc. as having to give stuff up. To me, it's more that the job isn't really finished until we've done it for everyone.