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Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by falcolas on Wednesday January 28, 2015 @11:08PM (#8964281)
OK. Maybe I don't get this, but doesn't framing this as a "war" make the situation even worse? Isn't viewing the opposite gender as "enemy combatants" a really terrible thing to do?

I would think that women face enough challenges in their workplace without being viewed by their coworkers as being hostile and out for their livelihoods.

Maybe I have this all wrong, but this seems that "news" pieces like this do not help anybody but the media (though perhaps it makes those on either side of the gender divide who already view the others as enemy combatants feel validated).

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by saraid216 on Thursday January 29, 2015 @12:44AM (#8964539)
> Isn't viewing the opposite gender as "enemy combatants" a really terrible thing to do?

Except that's not what's happening. The war is between the ideology that genders are equal and the ideology that genders are not equal.

Framing it the way you have is a standard tactic employed by people who are entirely aware they are at war and have set up feminists as enemy combatants already.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by nl on Thursday January 29, 2015 @01:02AM (#8964586)
The war is between the ideology that genders are equal and the ideology that genders are not equal.

I think a better summary would be this:

The war is between the ideology that genders should have equal opportunities and the ideology that genders should not.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by yummyfajitas on Thursday January 29, 2015 @01:24AM (#8964641)
I don't think anyone outside certain religions[1] asserts that genders should not have equal opportunities. Could you link to such a person?

A better statement: The war is between the ideology that individual humans should have equal opportunities, and the ideology that certain groups should be statistically equally represented in all fields.

(Or sometimes it's all fields that result in "power", a poorly defined term.)

[1] Interestingly, those religions usually have more women than computing. I've never been to a church where women didn't outnumber men.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by saraid216 on Thursday January 29, 2015 @01:27AM (#8964657)
Since you're obfuscating, I want to clarify that your "better statement" is not a restatement of what I said. It's a disagreement.
Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by yummyfajitas on Thursday January 29, 2015 @01:38AM (#8964688)
Yes, I'm disagreeing. I guess my phrasing was unclear, my apologies. Again, if you can link to people of any significance who openly state opposition to equal opportunity for individuals, it would be fairly convincing.
Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by geofft on Thursday January 29, 2015 @02:10AM (#8964756)
What does "equal opportunity" mean?

https://inclusiveactioneverydaylives.files.wordpress.com/201...

Is it equal opportunity to see the baseball game, or equal opportunity to pick up a crate?

There are certainly people who state opposition to each of these forms, although they each tend to say they support "equal opportunity," meaning the other.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by yummyfajitas on Thursday January 29, 2015 @02:36AM (#8964824)
To translate my statement to the language used in your cartoon, "equality of individual opportunity" is "SAMENESS" and statistical equality is "EQUITY".

One major obfuscation made by various activists in this discussion is that lack of EQUITY can only be caused by a lack of SAMENESS. As illustrated nicely by the cartoon, some folks are short. If shortness is distributed unevenly, then SAMENESS will result in some groups being underrepresented.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by geofft on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:54AM (#8966798)
Yes, but (to stretch this analogy quite thin) the goal here isn't shortness or tallness. The goal is being able to watch the baseball game. It just so happens that there's a big wooden fence there, which may or may not have some reason to exist, but its purpose is definitely not to block short people from watching the game. If it has a purpose, it's something else. Blocking short people is a side effect.

So, if shortness is distributed unequally, and there's a big wooden fence in front of the game, you could respond by saying that tall people are naturally more suited for game-watching, and argue based on tall people having historically been more successful at it. But that claim isn't likely to stand up to a deep examination of causality and reality.

There are two significantly more defensible responses: give short people enough crates to see over the fence, or tear down the fence (preferably by figuring out what purpose it serves, and building something else to serve its purpose without the side effects, like a Plexiglas fence).

Then your ability to watch the game will be determined only by your natural talent at game-watching, not by your natural talent at being tall.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by throway3242342 on Saturday January 31, 2015 @07:35PM (#8978628)
> So, if shortness is distributed unequally, and there's a big wooden fence in front of the game, you could respond by saying that tall people are naturally more suited for game-watching, and argue based on tall people having historically been more successful at it. But that claim isn't likely to stand up to a deep examination of causality and reality.

Interesting observation. The questions that follow next are:

(1) What are the "fences" in Silicon Valley that lead to the issues described in the article (a single fence is interesting for illustration, but in practice there are probably multiple fences)

(2) Of those additional "fences" how many are the fault of culture (the article cites several such as viewing women entrepreneurs as potential mates first and funding opportunities second) and how many are circumstances beyond the control of anyone in Silicon Valley (like the last of STEM support during formative years (childhood/adolescence/higher education) or the fact that greater testosterone levels correlate with greater aggression and risk taking that VCs tend to look for (several times in the article there are examples of women not being forward and actually asking for money or not asking for enough). The self selection of female entrepreneurs only seeking out VCs that have funded women and or have women involved is yet another fence that no one can solve but the women (this creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. what if several VC funds out there haven't funded a women because many women they may have wanted to fund never approached them to ask for money).

The former "fences" (like viewing female entrepreneurs as mates, we should drive out of the industry. But some of the latter issues are the responsibility of women (and the men whose exhibit the same traits) to solve. I know a ton of shy nerdy guys that would never get funding because they don't know how to pitch and get someone to cut them a check (close the deal). They either have to learn those skills or they have to pair up with another person who has skills in selling. Being tenacious and aggressive matters.

Of all the men working in Silicon Valley, a tiny fraction of them are actually fundable because they have the skills to be funded (technically brilliant and/or tenacious/alphas). The overwhelming majority do not get funded because they either don't have the technical skills or they are betas or omegas.

For startup ideas not reliant on some major, defensible technological advantage, the VC industry has a strong preference for founding teams teams that have at least one alpha among them regardless of gender.

One question I'd love to see studied is testosterone levels of people (relative to their own gender) pitching VCs and whether they get funded, and if so by how much.

Assuming there is a preference for investing in people with high testosterone levels, the second question which I'd like to see investigated (but I don't know how you'd design an experiment for this.) is whether or not investing in greater testosterone levels is a good investment thesis/strategy.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by nl on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:20AM (#8966999)
I don't think anyone outside certain religions[1] asserts that genders should not have equal opportunities. Could you link to such a person?

Some (fairly major) golf clubs don't let women play on their courses[1]. Plenty of people think women should not be allowed in combat roles in the armed forces[2]. I could continue...

[1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/10186258/Go...

[2] http://www.usnews.com/debate-club/should-women-be-allowed-to...

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by malandrew on Saturday January 31, 2015 @06:54PM (#8978550)
Will men be allowed to participate in Glassbreakers?

It would be pretty easy to cite circumstances when women are excluded and men are excluded. For example, there are men's only colleges and women's only colleges, and the number of women's only institutions of higher education greatly outnumber the number of men's only institutions (The only one I can think of is Hampden Sydney in Virginia).

Personally, I'm very anti-gender binary, so my purpose of commenting here is that it is intellectually dishonest to cite examples where women are excluded and conveniently omit examples where men are excluded.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by _tlf7 on Sunday February 01, 2015 @03:16AM (#8979483)
Glassbreakers is currently only for any one who identifies as a woman (cis or trans). This is because on a global scale, women face different career challenges that are specific to their gender. We hope that by connecting the global female workforce to each other we can speed up the process of a true gender balanced workforce. We do, however, want to keep men a part of the conversation and a part of our community. Anyone who believes is the social, political and economical equality of sexes is a Glassbreaker. We're saving the information of the men who do sign up or reach out because they want to help and are brainstorming creative ways to keep them involved.
Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by laurenmo on Sunday February 01, 2015 @11:25AM (#8980474)
_tlf7's comment is spot on. Even though you aren't on the platform, how would you like to be involved? @malandrew
Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by SamReidHughes on Friday January 30, 2015 @07:41PM (#8975411)
> Some (fairly major) golf clubs don't let women play on their courses[1].

Actually those clubs don't let women become members of the club, but they do let them play on the course. (Specifically, Muirfield does.) Or in some cases (I'm not sure if it's a nonzero number now that the R&A golf club has had its vote) they don't own the course.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by nl on Friday January 30, 2015 @09:18PM (#8975627)
So that is confirmation that women don't have the right to join the club?
Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by saraid216 on Thursday January 29, 2015 @01:26AM (#8964648)
Eh. I prefer mine. We're really just changing where we put the origin point for our coordinate systems, but I like mine better. :P

I would also swap out "opportunities" for "autonomies", but that's being pedantic and obscure.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by MrDom on Thursday January 29, 2015 @01:58AM (#8964732)
Define equal. Then tell me what legal rights women have that men don't have. Because I can name about five legal rights that women have that men don't.
Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by geofft on Thursday January 29, 2015 @02:17AM (#8964773)
Legal rights are irrelevant if they cannot be exercised. In 1860, a runaway slave in the North had the right to life, liberty, and property; why did the Underground Railroad reach to Canada?
Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by MrDom on Thursday January 29, 2015 @02:19AM (#8964783)
You didn't answer my question. What legal right don't they have? Or, as you say, what legal right can't they exercise?
Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by dang on Thursday January 29, 2015 @02:29AM (#8964804)
Your repetition of ideological talking points is both inflaming this thread and making it altogether predictable. We don't need yet another flamewar. Please stop.
Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by joshAg on Thursday January 29, 2015 @01:43AM (#8964697)
You misunderstand the enemy. The enemy isn't the other sex. The enemy is the culture itself that reinforces and perpetuates traditionalist gender roles.

In short, the enemy is the patriarchy, and if you think for a minute that that only negatively affects girls and women, well, then you've never been a shy nerd asking out that cute girl from your math class who's also a cheerleader. Spoiler alert, P(that goes well) < 0.01.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by vinceguidry on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:14AM (#8966536)
In this setting, you should refer to it as 'sexism'. It means almost the same thing as 'patriarchy', but isn't unnecessarily divisive. You can use 'culture of sexism' if you want to cut closer to 'patriarchy'.
Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by joshAg on Thursday January 29, 2015 @12:50PM (#8967698)
I don't think sexism or culture of sexism is enough because the example I gave is entirely about gender. The cheerleader doesn't reject him because he's male; she's rejects him because he's not masculine. That has nothing to do with his sex, and everything to do with not embodying what a society says the is ideal masculine gender.

Certainly those ideals are rooted in sexism and are in many ways sexist, but the sexism isn't what caused the problem in my example. The gender norms by themselves (ie doesn't matter whether they're the way they are due to sexism) caused the problem, because they basically say that a guy is worthless if he isn't a nearly perfect example of the masculine gender.

She's rejecting him because he doesn't have enough of the traits that society says a man should have (and maybe has too many of the traits that society says women should have): He's not strong, he's not assertive, he's not domineering, he's not good at arbitrary athletic competitions, etc. etc. etc.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by theorique on Friday January 30, 2015 @07:22AM (#8971667)
The cheerleader doesn't reject him because he's male; she's rejects him because he's not masculine. That has nothing to do with his sex, and everything to do with not embodying what a society says the is ideal masculine gender.

This has everything to do with his sex. He is being rejected (hypothetically - within our thought experiment here) because he is considered to be an insufficient exemplar of the male sex. To phrase it a different way - he is insufficiently masculine for this cheerleader (i.e. a very high-status female) to have an interest in him.

You correctly point this out later on - She's rejecting him because he doesn't have enough of the traits that society says a man should have (and maybe has too many of the traits that society says women should have): He's not strong, he's not assertive, he's not domineering, he's not good at arbitrary athletic competitions, etc. etc. etc.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by joshAg on Friday January 30, 2015 @02:14PM (#8973801)
If we don't explicitly define some terms first, we're just going to continue to equivocate. Sex and gender are two different things that you are conflating, and masculine, feminine, male, and female describe separate things.

Sex is purely genitalia. The two extremes are male and female, but this is a spectrum and not a binary.

Gender is all the other shit that society piles on top of that. The two extremes in western culture are masculine and feminine, but this is a spectrum and not a binary. That this mostly lines up with the sexual spectrum is an arbitrary decision by society; society could define gender in such a way that it is orthogonal to sex. Examples of where gender doesn't line up with sex in western society include butch within the lgbtq community: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_and_femme. Other societies have in fact defined gender in a way that doesn't line up with sex, so this isn't just theoretical: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity#Non-Western_gen....

In the thought experiment he is not being rejected because of his sex. He is being rejected because of the gender he presents is not sufficiently masculine enough.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by vinceguidry on Thursday January 29, 2015 @12:56PM (#8967736)
> She's rejecting him because he doesn't have enough of the traits that society says a man should have (and maybe has too many of the traits that society says women should have):

That's sexism.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by joshAg on Thursday January 29, 2015 @01:32PM (#8967971)
Gender-based prejudice is a separate thing from sexism (but they are interrelated). Point one and three from this page [1] do a good job explaining, but here's the crux of the argument:

"The first important thing to understand about sexism is that it is systemic. Gender-based prejudice, on the other hand, is individual, although it exists in the context of a sexist system."

"But men who experience oppression based on the way they express their gender are still not oppressed on the basis of their gender itself. That is to say, they’re not experiencing that oppression because they’re men. Non-men, on the other hand, experience gender-based oppression because they aren’t men."

[1]: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/01/sexism-vs-prejudice/

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by theorique on Thursday January 29, 2015 @09:13AM (#8966177)
How is it the fault of the "patriarchy" that shy nerds asking out cheerleaders tends not to go well? This makes it sound like a conspiracy.
Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by vinceguidry on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:25AM (#8966594)
So, sexism cuts all the way down to the bone of our daily interpersonal interactions. It creates the whole jock / nerd divide. It creates the difference between the hot cheerleaders and the normal girls.

What does this is gender roles and their consequent beauty norms. People decide that women are best off looking fit and have big boobs and are outgoing and have a certain personality. These norms are communicated to them all throughout their childhood through media and peer pressure. In exactly the same way, ideals create the jock as well.

When you actually look at the people embodying these stereotypes, there's nothing all that much different about them, they're just people who've managed to adopt these norms. They might even be meaner than normal, enforcing these roles themselves.

Gender roles, beauty norms are part of the culture that feminists call patriarchy. Patriarchy is just sexism at the social / cultural scale. They wouldn't exist without these broader cultural dynamics, people would just be people and you could ask out whoever you want and she wouldn't shut you down because she has a place to maintain in the hierarchy, a hierarchy created and maintained by sexism.

Once you realize that women perpetuate patriarchy too and how, that's when you start to really understand just what it is.

If you need an analogy, think about how the general lack of respect for privacy at both the individual and the legislative levels negatively affects all of us, even those who 'have nothing to hide'.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by theorique on Thursday January 29, 2015 @02:30PM (#8968301)
So, sexism cuts all the way down to the bone of our daily interpersonal interactions. It creates the whole jock / nerd divide. It creates the difference between the hot cheerleaders and the normal girls.

I'm not really clear on how such divisions emerges from sexism. At its root, it seems to come from primate status competition, within separate groups that happen to be divided out by sex.

Among the boys, the jocks are those who prioritize sports and physical achievement, while the nerds are those who prioritize academics and mental achievement. This divide persists even in the absence of females - for example, all-boys schools still have aggressive athletes and quiet, bookish introverts, regardless of the presence or absence of the opposite sex.

If anything, the thing you're describing as patriarchy and/or sexism is the effect, rather than the cause.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by MrDom on Thursday January 29, 2015 @01:57AM (#8964728)
The enemy isn't the patriarchy, it's feminism. They create straw men to attack because they want power. There is no global gender war. It's being fabricated in real time to justify the ridiculous laws that arbitrarily make criminals out of men. And if you don't believe me, ask Byron Banks.

you've never been a shy nerd asking out that cute girl from your math class who's also a cheerleader.

Feminism is designed to make sure it's illegal for the shy nerd to ask out the prom queen. Spoiler alert: feminists are not the friends you may think they are.

Re:What Silicon Valley Thinks of Women by joshAg on Thursday January 29, 2015 @02:39AM (#8964832)
Do you possibly mean Brian Banks, the Long Beach high football player?

False accusations of any crime are horrible, but they are in no way common: The United States Justice Department agrees [with the rough percentage of false rape claims], saying false accusations "are estimated to occur at the low rate of two percent -- similar to the rate of false accusations for other violent crimes."

Coincidentally, 2% is the number of rape accusations that ever result in a conviction: https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates (this sources back to the DoJ as well. RAINN just has a nifty infographic.