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Re:Evolving Java Without Changing the Language by jerf on Wednesday October 21, 2009 @03:23PM (#895438)
Because "Type foo = new SubType()" comes up approximately never.

Note, I did not say never. But don't give me a line about how you use it all the time. You don't. If you think you do, go grep over your code; you may think you do but I still bet you don't, it's probably a perceptual bias where you notice the exceptions out of proportion to their actual occurance. If you still pass that test, congratulations, I was wrong, you're one of the five people who do it all the time. You should probably stop, as something is probably very wrong with your design.

Meanwhile, optimizing the syntax for this case is a terrible optimization decision. That's the real problem, forcing literally millions (conservatively) of type annotations that are totally redundant.

"I've seen some brilliant code written in Java (If you steer well clear of 'enterprise' etc)."

You don't see the brilliant code that was never written because Java doesn't offer you the ability.

I also point to the "brilliant code" that isn't Java code at all, but compiler and bytecode hacks, which I suspect had you taken the time to mention some examples of "brilliant code" would have been in the list. That's not brilliance you can credit to Java, it's simply stuff that was so desirable it had to be done despite the fact Java didn't permit it.

Re:Evolving Java Without Changing the Language by axod on Wednesday October 21, 2009 @03:56PM (#895500)
I do use it every now and then, but personally even when types are the same, I don't really have issue with it. Makes it easy to see which type something is, and keeps things uniform and sane.

Shape foo = new Shape();

is often written separately:

Shape foo;

// Further down

foo = new Shape();

So in that instance it's easy to see in both places what foo is.

If you do have issues with the duplication, it wouldn't be crazy hard to just write a pre-processor to insert the Types on the left if you haven't specified them, before compilation.

I simply don't buy the notion that you can't write great code in language X. Language is largely irrelevant to how great the code is or isn't. Also irrelevant to how well you can scale, how successful your startup will be, etc etc

Great coders write great code. Languages are just ways of communicating that great code with machines, and other people.

Re:Evolving Java Without Changing the Language by jerf on Wednesday October 21, 2009 @06:30PM (#895785)
Actually, it isn't that great coders can't write great code in Java, it's that great coders, having virtually by definition a certain amount of experience in a wide variety of languages, require a lot of incentive before they'll choose to write their great code in Java, where the language is fighting them every step of the way.

Some people have managed to put out the necessary incentives, so such code does exist, but seeing a putatively great coder reach for Java as their first choice without such incentives is like seeing a putatively great coder reach first for Cobol... it pretty much proves they aren't a great programmer. Even if you want the JVM libraries, there are better ways.

Yeah, it's an opinion, but it's one from someone with the aforesaid experience in a lot of languages. It's like saying a great marathon runner can run a marathon in concrete shoes. Yeah, maybe they can, but seeing them choose it of their own free will would say an awful lot about their wisdom in shoe choice. Java is a language that simply loathes great code.

Besides, you seem to have missed the core point that optimizing the language for a case that doesn't come up often is a misfeature, no matter how you slice it. Optimize the language for the case that occurs most. "var X"-type syntaxes cover that. "var X" still works in your example, too; there's no reason that a smart compiler can't deal with that sort of separation between declaration and initialization.

Re:Evolving Java Without Changing the Language by axod on Wednesday October 21, 2009 @06:39PM (#895798)
Well, agree to disagree :) I've used a fair number of languages, and don't really understand the java hate. There's far uglier languages to look at. But then I love writing in assembly - which some feel overwhelmed with.

Personally it seems like some programmers at some point dislike being restrained by anything and become slightly high and mighty about the whole subject - the whole "Unless you use lisp, you can't understand why lisp is the best language" BS.

Why is "var X"-type syntax better? Why does that create better code :/ Sorry, I don't buy it. "var X" would be less precise, and less useful than specifying the explicit type you want.

FWIW, I just checked for fun my own comet server written in Java against tornado (Python). Very similar functionality, except the Java one is a smaller codebase. It's as verbose as you want it to be.

Re:Evolving Java Without Changing the Language by eru on Wednesday October 21, 2009 @07:14PM (#895857)
> "Unless you use lisp, you can't understand why lisp is the best language"

Of course we all know that Lisp is just a semi-imperative hack. Real programmers use something more pure like Clean or Haskell nowadays.

Anyway, I just wanted to applaud you two for the civility ouf your discourse. It was an informative read.