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Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by jacquesm on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @11:10AM (#8923681)
> Who would take these deals?

People that are insecure about what they bring to the table.

Pre series-A the risks are still huge and the stock should be priced accordingly. Say the founders think a pre series-A company is worth $2M and they offer 0.05% equity you could enter negotiations asking for 1% more if you feel like it (and walk away if it goes below 75% of your counter opening bid) if you can defend the position that there is still a 95% chance that the company won't make it unless they have you on board.

Otherwise price the stock at 0 and ask for a market conform salary.

They'll move. An offer is just an opening move, nothing more.

Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by brudgers on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @11:30AM (#8923792)
1% isn't enough equity to justify a below market salary for something with a 10% chance of a $100,000,000 exit in five years...and if only the outlook were that good and imagining no dilution and benevolent actions by controlling shareholders.

If the equity is important, then it should have some chance of producing fuck-you-money at liquidation. 0.05% is only fuck-you-money if there's a Google IPO size liquidation and there's been no dilution ($11,500,000 @ $23billion). That ain't significantly more likely to happen to a software developer than a chef.

Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by joezydeco on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @11:38AM (#8923831)
10% chance of a $100,000,000 exit in five years

That seems highly optimistic.

Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by Natsu on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @12:41PM (#8924275)
They're pointing out that, even if we assume a ridiculously high value for the equity, it's simply not worth any money. You're absorbing substantial risk for equity that has no chance of being worth real money.

This seems to be a common pattern in finance, where one party tries to shed all their risk cheaply.

Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by commentereleven on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @12:02PM (#8923967)
That's exactly the point.
Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by jacquesm on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @12:03PM (#8923972)
It depends on how far below market you will get, but you're right, for plenty of the offers out there 1% would be (way) low. But 0.05% is to be laughed at (politely, of course), no more than that and then simply counter with an offer that you'd be happy with.
Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by brudgers on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @04:47PM (#8925985)
As soon as it becomes hardball negotiation, then the context of later events is the same "what can I get out of this" finite pie. The goal is not a percentage but an opportunity for a life-changing payout. 1% or so means that the major shareholders aren't concerned if my working hard doesn't get me rich in circumstances where they become rich.

They're fine with us all having worthless stock together.

What I am getting at is that taking equity means getting a lawyer to oversee the business terms. Going into business with someone who doesn't value the long term success of those with whom they are in business is a bad idea in my opinion. It's better to hang out with people I trust.

Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by jacquesm on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @10:24PM (#8927382)
That goes to the heart of the most frequent cause of trouble between shareholders: badly aligned interests. Even so, if you're looking at the stock as a lottery ticket and the company does take off you're in a good position to make a fair amount of money, you just shouldn't count on that. But if you're going to play you might as well play for stakes that are worth it. Each to his own, I think a big part of the 'compensation' in being part of any start-up is that you get ring side seat on how that whole thing works and you can - if you are not just heads down coding - get some very valuable contacts out of it.

This can turn out to be worth more than either the stock or your salary but that's a long game and one with even less guarantees.

Still, I'm pretty sure that very few people that were on board with one of the bigger SV successes of the last 2 decades are going to complain about their pay-day, whereas for everybody whose company did not make it it hardly matters how much stock they got. And that's really where these founders miss the boat: they should be happy to share a sizable chunk of what is essentially worth nothing. They are essentially already busy with their exits when they should be building a company and that alone is a good reason to avoid those companies.

Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by brudgers on Thursday January 22, 2015 @03:49PM (#8931651)
Badly aligned expectations are perhaps worse than badly aligned interests because they spoil what could be an otherwise good relationship.

Shares that signify that the owners want a person to help run the company are different than shares as a form of payment. There's nothing wrong with either so long as everyone understands which it is. If it's compensation, then it's mostly a distraction from evaluating the job offer. The ringside seat to a rocket-ship ride comes with or without shares.

Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by ConfuciusSay on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @11:41AM (#8923846)
Or getting "let go" 24 hours before vesting date.
Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by jacquesm on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @12:02PM (#8923962)
Accelerated vesting upon termination is your friend here. Have your lawyer look over the contracts.
Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by brudgers on Thursday January 22, 2015 @03:53PM (#8931678)
There's a good metric buried there:

    Is the deal so good to a first approximation
    that paying a lawyer to review it is clearly
    a no-brainer?
Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by mrgriscom on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @11:41AM (#8923843)
If they're so stingy with the equity upfront, won't that make you suspicious they'll just try to screw you out of it later?
Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by jacquesm on Thursday January 22, 2015 @12:52AM (#8927770)
Let's flip that around: If they are not stingy upfront then that shows that they know they can screw you out of it later, the fact that they are stingy indicates they will have to pay up.
Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by 4k on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @11:15AM (#8923712)
This is definitely a great negotiation advice. I probably could negotiate better terms. But still it'd still start us (employee and employer) on the wrong foot. They'd think I am being greedy and I'd think this is a place where founders would always try to screw me over - breaking mutual trust - effectively ruining the positive spirit of working together.
Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by lambda9009 on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @11:20AM (#8923745)
> But still it'd still start us (employee and employer) on the wrong foot.

Absolutely false. I hear VPs all the time speak about trying to "close a candidate" during negotiations, like a car sale. If you are a tough negotiator you will only earn their respect.

Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by jacquesm on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @12:04PM (#8923988)
No, you're not being greedy. They are being greedy. Being reasonable in return and walking away when you don't get what you want are the valid responses. Lots of good advise elsewhere in this thread regarding vesting and making sure that you don't end up with 'B' class shares.
Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by ef4 on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @01:17PM (#8924501)
This is completely backward. Your perceived worth is tied to your price. You will literally get better treatment and more respect by negotiating a better price.

Not negotiating just makes you look like you don't understand business and shouldn't be trusted with any business decisions.

Re:Startup jobs with low salary and negligible equity, what ... by debacle on Wednesday January 21, 2015 @11:17AM (#8923724)
Contrary to what people want to believe, greed is a huge part of the startup ecosystem.