> It's not complicated

It _is_ complicated. It's so complicated that (i) there are discussions on the internet about whether 15% or 20% or 25% is fair, and (ii) there are many specialised 'tip calculator' apps.

When I walk into a restaurant, how much should I be expecting to pay for 'meets expectation' service? Is this a % of the bill, or a $ amount related to the amount of time I'm being served (a proxy for the amount of service I get)? Whatever your answer, are you confident that most other patrons of said restaurant would agree with your recommendation?

One thing that is true that makes no sense is that tips are designed to be based on the dollar amount of the bill. Why should a 45 minute service of a $100 meal mandate a larger tip than the same 45 minute service of a $50 meal? The staff has put in the same amount of time and effort to serve both meals... yet the more expensive meal expects a larger tip. This aspect makes no sense whatsoever. A tip should be based on the number of clients served at a table + the time spent in the restaurant + perhaps additional money for special requests or complex meals.

If anything, you'd think the cheaper meal should have a larger tip since you're occupying a spot for a cheap meal when they could have had a client sit down and spend 3x as much as you. It's all backwards, the fact that the tip is based on the dollar amount of the meal...

I didn't say tipping was a great system, I said that you shouldn't eat at sit down restaurants in the US if you have a problem with it.

I guess if you want external validation of what is fair you can make it complicated, but I was trying to focus on tips not being extra compensation in that specific situation.

> I said that you shouldn't eat at sit down restaurants in the US if you have a problem with it.

I expressed no opinion on this point.

> I guess if you want external validation of what is fair you can make it complicated

Even if I don't want external validation of what is fair, it is still complicated enough that I need to pull out a calculator after a date with my wife.

> I was trying to focus on tips not being extra compensation in that specific situation.

Agreed, and this is the reason I tip according to local norms when I'm in the US.

If it is so necessary and expected just include it in the price of the food. Why leave it to my whims at all? In what other situations(excluding restaurants/cabs) do you routinely part with more money than is legally owed?

>> "If you walk into a sit down restaurant in the US with a plan not to tip, you are being pretty obnoxious."

The owner is being obnoxious. It's not up to me to pay his/her staff. I've worked and know people who've worked in restaurants in the UK. They get paid above minimum wage and still get tips (which aren't required, but people usually round up the bill). It's not hard.

Like several other replies, you are talking about something different than I am talking about. You're expressing an opinion about including tips as an expected component of the transaction. I'm talking about flaunting this widely known expectation.

Your opinion that the structure is obnoxious does not make it any less obnoxious to fail to tip (especially when, as I said, someone walks in planning not to tip).

The obnoxious part imo is more that people feel obligated to tip even when the service is bad. There are several comments in this thread about tipping 10-20% for BAD service. Putting that decision on that customer is unfair.

It's complicated because its so ingrained in our society yet its completely unenforced except only by at most intense personal judgement.

Do we tip because the food service industry cannot meet demands to pay all staff at least minimum wage?

Is it because minimum wage nationally is too low and people feel the need to fill in that missing %?

Why would I tip a waiter and not a customer service representative?

What about a cashier?

What criteria do you use to determine who you tip?

One guy above mentioned he tips all sorts of people and it seems like the underlying reason is because they provide a service. Everybody provides a service, do you tip everybody?

If the bottom line for tipping is that you provide a service, it seems to be a binary situation doesn't it? You either tip everybody or you tip nobody.

It's such a completely arbitrary social contract. Maybe I'm reaching too much into this. Maybe I'm just autistic, who knows.

> You either tip everybody or you tip nobody.

If i go to McDonalds and order a coke I don't tip. If i go to a pub and order a coke I do. Explain that one to me.

In the specific instance of sit down restaurants, we tip because that is how the transaction is structured.

Do you think if restaurants had to pay their staff 4 times as much (minimum wage for servers is often ~$3 per hour but they probably take home closer to $10 or more) that the prices on the menu would stay the same? Do you see how that makes Do we tip because the food service industry cannot meet demands to pay all staff at least minimum wage? the wrong question to be asking?

I don't have to guess, I know the prices won't be that different. Not everyone knows it, but in WA state everyone including tipped employees must get the same minimum wage of over $9 an hour (to be increased to $15 in Seattle over the next several years). So the argument about underpayed workers doesn't hold any ground here, but people are still expected to tip.

I'd rather the burden of staff being paid be shifted to the employer and made up in the difference in cost of food. I'm from Canada where our minimum wage is quite decent, $10.50.

Yes, that's fine. My argument was quite clear, that you should not abuse the existing situation. I was even geographically specific.