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Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by bad_user on Friday December 12, 2014 @10:52AM (#8740694)
I'm a Romanian, a country that's pretty close to Russia and I am one that suffers for what the Ukrainians are going through with Russia, because I can see how the same thing could happen in Basarabia (Moldova) and there are already signs of that. Russia historically has been occupying territories, getting rid of any political dissent by effectively killing or deporting people, while crushing their national identity. I hate Russia for what they did after the secret pact from Yalta, for the soviet induced hunger that happened after that and for the years of communism we endured.

It's been only 24 years since we escaped their control and apparently we've been lucky, but now Putin is destroying any chance of having a peaceful neighborhood. War is effectively at our borders and Putin is to be blamed.

So spare me rhetoric about every government or country being the same. No, they are not equal. And I hope the Putin administration will receive what it deserves.

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by s_baby on Friday December 12, 2014 @12:28PM (#8741411)
>So spare me rhetoric about every government or country being the same. No, they are not equal. And I hope the Putin administration will receive what it deserves.

Maybe not equal to you. US has propped up almost countless corrupt regimes and cartels for its own interest. You just don't care when it's happening in Saudi Arabia or Mexico.

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by sologoub on Friday December 12, 2014 @12:20PM (#8741340)
The politics and history there is much more complicated!

I strongly believe that any country put in a position of power will expand the control by any means necessary. Your own history is far from flawless: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941_Odessa_massacre.

That said, I strongly doubt Russia has any interest in Moldova or Romania. Putin lost a figurehead in Yanukovich and grabbed what he could out of the ensuing mess. Putin did not start what happened in Ukraine, but rather was extremely opportunistic once it happened.

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by dmytrish on Friday December 12, 2014 @03:09PM (#8742406)
There are evidences that Crimea annexation had been prepared for few years before any unrests. There are photos of paramilitary people with Donetsk "People Republic" flags at Russian summer camp Seliger in 2009. Relentless Russian propaganda has been translated all over Eastern Ukraine and Crimea for ten years.

Don't get me started on "Putin did not start what happened in Ukraine".

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by sologoub on Friday December 12, 2014 @09:20PM (#8743847)
Eh... Propaganda has been so strong on both sides that I doubt we will ever know the truth.

Personally, I'm very conflicted on the question of Crimea and don't think I can comment or discuss unbiasedly.

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by osipov on Friday December 12, 2014 @11:04AM (#8740799)
>>So spare me rhetoric about every government or country being the same.

Don't twist my words. I said governments are becoming more authoritarian. I stand by this statement.

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by bad_user on Friday December 12, 2014 @12:10PM (#8741267)
Judging by your other comments, your intent is pretty clear but I'll bite.

I strongly disagree that governments are becoming more authoritarian, it's quite the opposite, governments are becoming more liberal and democratic, with the situation improving even in countries such as Libya, Egypt and Morocco. The only reason for why the situation seems bleak to some people is because access to information has become unhindered due to the Internet.

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by pdeuchler on Friday December 12, 2014 @01:31PM (#8741850)
>>> with the situation improving even in countries such as Libya, Egypt and Morocco

I don't know enough about Morocco to call you out on that one, but dude... Libya and Egypt? If the current goings-on in those countries forms the basis of your opinion then I think you might need to rethink your position

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by bad_user on Saturday December 13, 2014 @04:44AM (#8744741)
I'm not saying that Libya and Egypt are democracies, all I said is that the situation has been improving even there.
Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by capisce on Friday December 12, 2014 @03:42PM (#8742577)
Democracy seems to be struggling in some African countries: http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-return-of-africas-strongmen-...
Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by adventured on Friday December 12, 2014 @03:53PM (#8742626)
This is mostly accurate.

Europe pre-WW2 was overrun with all variations of fascism and authoritarianism. Prior to that, it was still ruled by Kings, Queens, and Imperial rule ala Napoleon.

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by CamperBob2 on Friday December 12, 2014 @12:55PM (#8741608)
You falsely equated the actions of a few berserk local cops in the US with the Putin regime. You need people to twist your words so that you don't look like an idiot or worse.
Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by osipov on Friday December 12, 2014 @01:20PM (#8741773)
It is just ignorant to be unaware of the scale of police brutality in the United States. Educate yourself.
Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by adventured on Friday December 12, 2014 @03:56PM (#8742639)
Police brutality in the US is a problem. It doesn't compare to the slaughter of millions under the former USSR, or the complete shut-down of all freedom of speech and freedom of the press under Putin.

If the US were anything like Russia, we couldn't be having this conversation on a heavily trafficked web site like HN located within the US. The US still has the greatest level of freedom of speech of any nation on earth, and the strongest speech protections, even after some of the recent erosion.

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by xxxyy on Friday December 12, 2014 @02:30PM (#8742184)
It is just ignorant to compare US police brutality to, say, Holodomor, and not see connections between Putin and Stalin.
Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by supergirl on Friday December 12, 2014 @02:57PM (#8742348)
And what makes you think US would have treated Romania better? Please read more about history. Your ignorance is common. For every bad thing Russia did there is an equally bad thing US did. Same goes for any other 2 countries. It's everyone for himself.
Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by adventured on Friday December 12, 2014 @03:49PM (#8742609)
When did the US annex 1/3 of Latin America?

There's no sane comparison to be made between the US and its neighbors, and what the Soviet Union did to Europe.

The US - Canadian border for a century was the largest, basically unguarded border in world history.

Wake me up when the US invades Canada and starts annexing territory.

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by supergirl on Friday December 12, 2014 @04:20PM (#8742767)
You must be joking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_annexation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_re... "A decades long civil war ensued in which some 200,000 people were killed, mostly by the US backed military" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d%27%C3%A9t... "The coup subjected Brazil to a military regime politically aligned to the interests of the United States government" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

Too many to dig up.

"Under the Reagan Doctrine, the United States provided overt and covert aid to anti-communist guerrillas and resistance movements in an effort to "roll back" Soviet-backed communist governments in Africa, Asia, and Latin America"

Are you awake yet?

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by vadman on Friday December 12, 2014 @11:54AM (#8741152)
Your country was of enormous help to Hitler while attacking the USSR, and the retribution you had to "endure", given everything you did, was astonishingly mild. So spare me your complaints.
Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by bad_user on Friday December 12, 2014 @12:25PM (#8741380)
The only reason for why Romania joined the Axis, is because of the Molotov–Ribbentrop pact [1] between Hitler and Stalin from 1939, which amongst other things, for us it meant yielding control of Basarabia and Bucovina to the soviet union. This provided the perfect opportunity for the Romanian parliament to be dissolved and for a military dictatorship to seize power in Romania, which is the one responsible for joining the Axis.

But yeah, thanks for bringing that up - goes to show that what goes around comes around ;-)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pac...

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by nnq on Friday December 12, 2014 @01:43PM (#8741901)
> given everything you did

Man, it's 2014, the people that did anything in WW2 on both sides are long dead.

And in the context of that time, "the Allies" included Stalin's Russia (read some history, this tyrant killed more of his own people than there were victims of Hitler's holocaust!), so choosing to support Hitler's Germany against an alliance that included Russia was not necessarily a bad idea at that that time, even morally and ethically speaking.

And concerning post-war "retribution" as a way to handle international relationships after a war: basically the only reason Hitler himself came to power in Germany was because this country had to endure an extremely harsh "retribution" post WW1 so maybe the people that made this harsh post WW1 deal really deserved the killings and destruction of WW2! Post WW2 western European countries all benefited from something called the Marshall Plan from the US and of decades of productive cooperation in the EU, regardless of who did what in WW2, whereas the "Eastern Block" countries all got to endure "retribution" and being part of the unhealthy forced economy of the USSR.

International politics is something that should be taken separately from concepts such as "fairness" and "correctitude" and "punishing someone for one's bad deeds". You don't punish a whole people for the consequences of what a leader decided, even if they followed that leader. You try to rebuild countries and economies, regardless of what seems "fair" or not, and you try to accelerate economical growth, even if this even means letting 1 in 10 war criminals get away. You optimize social and economical systems for performance so that they can provide the best average "quality of live", even if this means swallowing some shady politics once in a while and occasionally "forgetting" some historical truths when remembering them is not "productive".

Thankfully the US, UK and modern Germany get these basic principles right, and I really hope they will have as much of an influence as possible on international politics, in the detriment of Russia and China who, despite the immense economic growth of the last, haven't really gotten to the level where they really understand what "healthy modern democracy" is all about and know how to play "the game" and also make the people happy.

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by guard-of-terra on Friday December 12, 2014 @02:04PM (#8742024)
"You try to rebuild countries and economies, regardless of what seems "fair" or not"

The problem here: after the cold war, which Russia lost, nobody cared to rebuild its economy; instead everything was done to siphon people and resources away and to destroy industry. Obviously US really did not want to see Russia on the map anymore and so they did that.

Guess what - 20 years pass, Russia is angry like a non-mortally wounded wild animal.

I'm not a fan of mr. Putin but he's very cautious still. With someone less cautious it WILL look like pre-WW2.

And of course it will be a disaster for everyone involved.

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by bad_user on Saturday December 13, 2014 @07:31AM (#8745044)
First of all, the cold war wasn't a real war, but a competition between the US and Russia. Russia's loss was that they overspent resources they couldn't afford to spend. Russia is also really big and has all the resources it needs to recover from anything. In such a scenario I don't understand why would anybody assume that, if it had been given international help, they would be any different than what they are today.

Second of all, if they lost the cold war, I don't get why they'd want another one. Putin is only cautious because he knows that in such a scenario he will lose. And Putin's nationalistic behavior only happened because Russia was on the brink of another economic recession.

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by guard-of-terra on Saturday December 13, 2014 @08:14AM (#8745113)
"Russia is also really big and has all the resources it needs to recover from anything"

Sure, but industries will be destroyed and people die, starve and be forcibly relocated. That's what happened to ex-USSR a lot because the rest of world did not see any reason to rebuild a country that in fact yielded to them.

You are free to "don't understand", but the damage I mentioned was done. Don't then be surprised when people you considered harmless want to nuke you for all the good. All the good that, strictly speaking, you did not have to do.

"Second of all, if they lost the cold war, I don't get why they'd want another one"

If Germans lost one world war, why would they want another one?

Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by moo on Friday December 12, 2014 @04:20PM (#8742765)
You don't have to be a centenarian to have fought in WWII. Plenty of them around. Stalin killing fascists was a good thing. You are retelling a good story but the West, always working on its narrative, does not tell the truth. And Japan and Italy? Axis powers were trying to join the imperialist game of u.s. and britain of land grabbing colonies. Hence WWII was an inter-imperialist war. After WWII you get many Third World countries trying to break away from Western puppet governments, colonialism, by flying the red flag.
Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by moo on Friday December 12, 2014 @04:29PM (#8742806)
A lot of the fascist collaborator countries, including Baltic states and Ukraine, are still proud of their support of fascism. The West turns a blind eye to this as its promotion of democracy is a political tool, which is a farce considering the dictatorships it creates and supports like Saudi Arabia.
Re:Google to close engineering office in Russia by bad_user on Saturday December 13, 2014 @04:56AM (#8744759)
To me such lines sound like the soviet propaganda we were listening to until the nineties. The communists basically needed enemies, like all good oppressors do and so they were blaming fascism and imperialism for everything.