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Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by realusername on Thursday December 11, 2014 @07:28AM (#8734359)
And what's the alternative ? The world is not the United States, in most countries of the world, there is simply no legal way to get a movie/tv show on the Internet. I'm not even talking about 3rd world countries here, Netflix (the only service which is good enough to compare to Torrents) just barely arrived in Europe and their list of movies is so poor, it's not even worth talking about it. Torrents are not working only because it's free but because it's the easier/only option in most places.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by afro88 on Thursday December 11, 2014 @07:57AM (#8734459)
That's a dangerous line of thinking.

Just because people in the US have legal access to content doesn't mean you're allowed to steal it. You make the assumption that you're entitled to something if it's commercially available to people in other parts of the world. You're not.

Movies and TV Shows aren't basic necessities that you're entitled to. They are luxuries that you can have if companies decide to sell them to you.

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by ars on Thursday December 11, 2014 @08:06AM (#8734496)
What steal? Copyright only exists so that people have motivation to make more content.

If the content is anyway not available, that argument vanishes and you are left without copyright.

Copyright is not some fundamental right that always exists, it only exists in certain limited circumstances.

(And seriously? Dangerous thinking?)

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by afro88 on Thursday December 11, 2014 @12:21PM (#8735900)
> If the content is anyway not available, that argument vanishes and you are left without copyright.

Except that if people already has a copy of your work and then you finally manage to secure a deal with a publisher in country x, you now can't sell it. Most of the interested parties already have it.

> (And seriously? Dangerous thinking?)

It's a slippery slope. Content creators should have full control over how their content can be consumed. This goes both ways - if they want it to be free then it should be free. Also, no other company should be able to infringe their copyright and start charging money for it, or modify it, or use it in a context that they haven't approved.

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by vidarh on Thursday December 11, 2014 @08:20AM (#8734556)
No matter what you think about it, copyright infringement isn't theft.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by afro88 on Thursday December 11, 2014 @12:07PM (#8735827)
Care to elaborate? As a musician I struggle to wrap my head around how people think this is the case.

I record a piece of music, I own it. I say if you want to own a copy for personal consumption, it costs $5. End of the argument.

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by lmm on Thursday December 11, 2014 @09:01AM (#8734702)
My friend in the US has bought and paid for a show, and wants to send me a copy. Why shouldn't they be able to? The one who wants to prevent that is the one who's entitled.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by afro88 on Thursday December 11, 2014 @12:22PM (#8735908)
Because it's a copy. They should be allowed to gift you their copy of the show, sure. Just like if I bought a DVD only available in Australia and gifted it to a friend in France for example.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by lmm on Friday December 12, 2014 @06:27AM (#8739500)
Well, you're already arguing for something more liberal than current law. The movie companies put a technological mechanism in place to make that not work (in violation of EU regulations, but nothing seems to have happened about that), and got laws passed to make it illegal to circumvent that mechanism. And while sending a DVD from Australia to France as a private individual is legal, doing it as a commercial operation is not.

But making the real argument, if it's my DVD, I should be able to copy it.

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by afro88 on Friday December 12, 2014 @10:34AM (#8740550)
> Well, you're already arguing for something more liberal than current law.

Sure, but my point still stands :) Your friend shouldn't be allowed to copy their purchase and send it to you. They should be allowed to send you their purchase as a gift. People need to understand that just because something is digital it's not suddenly ok to endlessly copy and distribute it for free. What gives you the right? It may be unfortunate that the copyright owner of the show you like hasn't secured publishing/distribution rights in your country yet, but that doesn't give you the right to copy it for free because you really want to watch it.

> The movie companies put a technological mechanism in place to make that not work (in violation of EU regulations, but nothing seems to have happened about that), and got laws passed to make it illegal to circumvent that mechanism.

Yes, and I agree on this point. Region blocking sucks and it kills the gifting to an international friend scenario.

> But making the real argument, if it's my DVD, I should be able to copy it.

For your own personal use, yes.

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by lmm on Monday December 15, 2014 @08:17AM (#8751768)
> People need to understand that just because something is digital it's not suddenly ok to endlessly copy and distribute it for free.

I think you've inverted this. When things weren't digital, it was perfectly ok to e.g. buy a nice table, make a copy, and give that copy to a friend.

The argument for copyright is a balance of positives and negatives, the idea that the benefit to society of incentivising creators outweighs the cost to society of disallowing copying. It's very difficult to argue that this adds up in cases where the creator isn't selling something in a particular region.

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by afro88 on Monday December 15, 2014 @06:39PM (#8755134)
> I think you've inverted this. When things weren't digital, it was perfectly ok to e.g. buy a nice table, make a copy, and give that copy to a friend.

I think you've just changed what we're talking about. But I'll run with it. Technically, copying furniture is not ok, it's infringing on the copyright of the design. But since it requires so much effort to copy the table manually, it's not done much, so no one really cares if a guy takes the nice table he bought and hand crafts a copy for his mate for Christmas. If he started a company cranking out copies of this design though, then it's another matter entirely and he would be shut down and sued.

In the case of digital files, copying literally takes half a second and no effort. And this ease makes it something that a lot of people do, which is why people really care about it.

> It's very difficult to argue that this adds up in cases where the creator isn't selling something in a particular region.

You say that like it's a choice for the creator of the work. For a lot of people it isn't, and it's just the way the system works. They have to wait until a publisher in that region of the world wants to publish their work, or wait until legal issues clear up before things can progress etc. I'm not saying it's a great system, but it's what is in place, and freely copying people's works because it isn't available in your region is probably harming the creator of the work since their potential market is taken away from them.

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by lmm on Tuesday December 16, 2014 @06:58AM (#8756738)
> Technically, copying furniture is not ok, it's infringing on the copyright of the design.

The idea that a design would be something you'd own, license, or keep track of, is a very new one.

> freely copying people's works because it isn't available in your region is probably harming the creator of the work since their potential market is taken away from them.

Sure, but by how much? Does it actually lead to works not being made, to creators going back to their day job? Is the cost actually bigger than the benefit of copying the work?

Also, as a policy this aligns the incentives correctly: it means creators and publishers are encouraged to find a way to distribute their work everywhere as soon as possible. Which is what copyright is supposed to do.

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by 3984239849823 on Thursday December 11, 2014 @08:43AM (#8734637)
Technically watching movies form internet is perfectly legal in most countries. Some distributor made movie accessible under some sort of license. It is not user obligation (or duty) to investigate wherever all legalities are sorted between producer and distributor.

Plus some countries made it legal to make copy for personal use... and so on.

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by Vespasian on Thursday December 11, 2014 @04:25PM (#8737136)
While users have not the obligation to investigate the source of a movie in detail, depending on your juristdiction there are laws about "obvious illegal sources" (like sites where one can download crappy copies of movies still in cinema for free, extremly shaddy ads, covered by public media as being illegal). For example if Netflix turned out to not have a license in my country I could argue that I as a user could not have known that since they made looked and acted like a regular respectable company. If on the other hand I download a torrent containing a recently released movie for free and an accompanying txt file allowing me to "share it to the world", my chances of defending that in front of a judge are not the greatest.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by icebraining on Thursday December 11, 2014 @09:04AM (#8734722)
I'm not sure if your first sentence is very accurate. Where did you get that information?
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by rjaco31 on Thursday December 11, 2014 @09:43AM (#8734928)
Well most of the people prosecuted for piracy, maybe even all of them, were because of uploading/copyright infringement, it's usually a very gray area of just downloading/watching a stream, and I've never seen a case of it being illegal per se.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by pionar on Thursday December 11, 2014 @07:50AM (#8734431)
> there is simply no legal way to get a movie/tv show on the Internet.

Yes, how dare someone not sell their widget everywhere! If Ford won't sell me a car in Argentina, I'll just go steal it!

It's a freedom issue! I must be able to legally watch Friends!

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by the8472 on Thursday December 11, 2014 @07:57AM (#8734461)
Maybe a better analogy:

If <insert big pharma here> won't sell cancer drugs for reasonable prices in my country then we will have local companies ignore patents and produce knockoffs instead and sell them at production cost.

Which is exactly what's happening in india for example. Remember that you're not stealing anything. Just making copies.

Of course treating cancer does not have the same societal value as getting hollywood entertainment, but it's still a market failure when the content industry cannot satisfy demand in those countries. And at least turning both eyes is a much better approach than criminalizing millions.

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by ars on Thursday December 11, 2014 @08:08AM (#8734507)
How is that stealing? If they won't sell you the wiget then why should they get to claim copyright?

Copyright only exists to promote selling content, take that away and copyright vanishes right along with it.

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by pionar on Thursday December 11, 2014 @09:15AM (#8734763)
No, copyright exists to say, I made this, I get to control how it's distributed.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by TheCoelacanth on Thursday December 11, 2014 @10:03AM (#8735061)
No, copyright exists to incentivize the creation of new works for the benefit of society.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by dragonwriter on Thursday December 11, 2014 @11:00AM (#8735443)
You're both right. Grandparent is more correct as to why, historically, copyright as a monopoly grant was first created, but parent is correct as to the explicit Constitutional provision granting Congress the power to create copyright (and patents, etc.) in the US system, and generally the most commonly accepted reason for the continuation of copyright in the modern world.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by forgottenpass on Thursday December 11, 2014 @10:52AM (#8735399)

    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by 
    securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the 
    exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by icebraining on Thursday December 11, 2014 @07:56AM (#8734458)
The correct analogy is: Ford doesn't sell a Ford in Argentina, but a legal owner of a Ford car offered to give you a copy of hers/his, and you accepted it.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by jkaunisv1 on Thursday December 11, 2014 @10:07AM (#8735088)
Except that your friend can't just click a button and send you a copy of their Ford. Your analogy makes no sense, Fords aren't made of bits.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by icebraining on Thursday December 11, 2014 @10:12AM (#8735122)
Exactly. I was trying to show that analogies between digital content and physical things don't make sense.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by jkaunisv1 on Thursday December 11, 2014 @12:05PM (#8735809)
Ah..that wasn't clear. My bad.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by k-mcgrady on Thursday December 11, 2014 @07:54AM (#8734452)
Netflix isn't the only option. You can use iTunes (which is available in a lot of countries with a large collection). You can buy the DVD online or in a store. You can buy a DVD online from a different country and have it shipped to you. And if ALL of that fails - what right do you have to that content anyway? You might want to give them your money, they might not want it. It sucks but it's a poor justification for piracy.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by kruczek on Thursday December 11, 2014 @08:04AM (#8734484)
> You might want to give them your money, they might not want it.

Actually in such case piracy doesn't need any justification, since it doesn't harm anyone. With only two alternatives - either to download content illegally or to not get it at all, content owners get exactly the same: nothing.

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by icebraining on Thursday December 11, 2014 @08:08AM (#8734509)
The problem is that not everyone agrees with that consequentialist view.
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by yitchelle on Thursday December 11, 2014 @08:45AM (#8734649)
> since it doesn't harm anyone

How did you come this this conclusion?

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by zxcdw on Thursday December 11, 2014 @08:55AM (#8734678)
No "lost potential sale", when the sale wasn't even a realistic possibility?
Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by newaccountfool on Thursday December 11, 2014 @10:49AM (#8735387)
I can help back this up by an article that details studies that have been done.

http://freakonomics.com/2012/01/12/how-much-do-music-and-mov...

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by Benji_San on Thursday December 11, 2014 @09:53AM (#8734998)
I don't really think a justification is needed. Yes it's illegal but so is driving faster than the speed limit, yet most people does it because they feel entitled. You can ticket people for breaking the rules but it isn't very effective as people value arriving at a red light 3 seconds faster higher than the risk of getting caught.

Get real no one who has ever pirated anything is going to buy a DVD over pirating simply because buying the DVD is a really shitty service compared to the piratebay alternative.

Re:Peter Sunde: 'I went to jail for my cause. What did you do?' by k-mcgrady on Thursday December 11, 2014 @02:19PM (#8736563)
>> "Get real no one who has ever pirated anything is going to buy a DVD over pirating simply because buying the DVD is a really shitty service compared to the piratebay alternative."

Of course. My point is don't be self-righteous and use 'it's not available in my country' as justification for trying to make it moral.