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Re:Gravitricity by apsec112 on Saturday November 22, 2014 @07:24PM (#8647242)
Let's do out the math on this...

A subway tunnel might have a diameter of about 6 meters, so cross section = 3 * 3 * pi = 28 square meters. Digging subway tunnel through rock costs about $100M per kilometer. On the one hand, these holes would be vertical, which is harder than horizontal; on the other hand, they wouldn't need ventilation and train tracks and stuff. Let's handwave and say it's $100M for a 1 km deep hole.

Now, you can't fill the whole tunnel perfectly or the air can't escape, so our total volume of mass will be about 25 m^2 * 1000 m = 25,000 cubic meters. If the weights are made from lead, that's a total mass of ~280,000 tons or 2.8 * 10^8 kg, at a mean depth of 500 meters, so our total potential energy is 2.8 * 10^8 * 500 * 9.8 = 1.4 TJ, or 1.3 TJ net assuming you get the efficiency they claim. 1 kWh is 3.6 MJ, so you can store ~400,000 kWh at $100M capital cost (ignoring for the moment the cost of weights, generators, etc.), which is $250 per kWh installed capacity.

That's pretty good... but you also have to pay for weights and a bunch of other stuff. Bulk lead costs about $2,000 per ton on the current market, so that's $560M for the weights, which puts you back in the $2,000 per kWh range which doesn't beat lithium batteries. So you have to use iron or some cheaper material... but then you don't have as much storage capacity because the density is lower, and even with iron you're paying $400 per metric ton or $80M for all your weights. So this isn't obviously impossible like Solar Roadways, but even in the best case it won't make storage dramatically cheaper.

Re:Gravitricity by cperciva on Saturday November 22, 2014 @07:44PM (#8647310)
Digging subway tunnel through rock costs about $100M per kilometer. On the one hand, these holes would be vertical, which is harder than horizontal

I would have thought that a better comparison would be oil wells, which cost about $500 per ft of depth, or $1.5M per km.

our total volume of mass will be about 25 m^2 1000 m = 25,000 cubic meters. If the weights are made from lead, that's a total mass of ~280,000 tons*

You seem to be assuming that the entire depth of the shaft is filled by weights. My impression was that the weight was much smaller than the shaft it fell down.

Re:Gravitricity by msandford on Saturday November 22, 2014 @07:52PM (#8647332)
Oil wells are also only a foot in diameter. Makes the economics worse, really.
Re:Gravitricity by darkmighty on Sunday November 23, 2014 @01:48AM (#8648028)
Actually 1/2 the shaft filled by weights is optimal independently of material, considering only raw energy. (E=p A h(H-h), respectively density, area, payload height and shaft height, Eopt=p A H^2/2 ). Pretty surprising to me that the energy increases quadratically with depth.
Re:Gravitricity by cperciva on Sunday November 23, 2014 @02:09AM (#8648062)
Yes, if you're considering only energy. But in practice there are other considerations, such as the cost of the weight, the strength (and thus cost) of the cables, the amount of torque which can be produced for lifting the weight, etc.
Re:Gravitricity by nl on Saturday November 22, 2014 @10:49PM (#8647737)
This is wrong.

1. Digging mine shafts is dramatically cheaper than structal tunnels. They dig exploratory shafts frequently to roughly these depths for well under $1m

2. Using a disused mineshaft would have a negative cost associated with it because the security associated with keeping it safe is non zero.

Re:Gravitricity by tempestn on Saturday November 22, 2014 @07:33PM (#8647275)
One major advantage this would have over chemical batteries (Lithium-Ion or otherwise) is that it should allow for many, many more cycles. You would have to replace cables and motors and such at some point, but the expensive components - the hole and the weight - should last near-indefinitely.

It certainly appears more expensive than pumped storage, but as they say, it doesn't require a convenient mountain and lake. That makes for much more flexibility in placement, and the closer you can place the storage to the demand, the less is wasted in transmission, and the less storage you ultimately need. That said, the pumped heat storage design[1] that hit the homepage yesterday would have all those same advantages, and although the efficiency would be slightly lower, it looks much cheaper to build.

[1]: http://www.windpowerengineering.com/featured/business-news-p...

Re:Gravitricity by marcosdumay on Saturday November 22, 2014 @07:43PM (#8647309)
Now that you mentioned a mountain... Why again is a hole needed?

Edit: I mean that an inclined rail could be just as good as a hole, and way cheaper.

Re:Gravitricity by photon137 on Saturday November 22, 2014 @10:20PM (#8647695)
Peak-power output would be less for an inclined rail (vs the vertical shaft solution).
Re:Gravitricity by jamesaguilar on Saturday November 22, 2014 @10:51PM (#8647740)
Yeah, but if they're a quarter as efficient and cost a tenth as much, then we might have a winner.
Re:Gravitricity by mtdewcmu on Sunday November 23, 2014 @04:15AM (#8648244)
It may have to do with maintenance.
Re:Gravitricity by tempestn on Saturday November 22, 2014 @07:46PM (#8647315)
For the gravity-based design, you need to lower a weight directly up and down in a controlled manner (ie without swinging etc.) That basically requires a shaft in the ground. If you have a mountain and a lake handy, pumped storage would be more economical, but the advantage of this design - as I understand it - is it can be deployed in places that don't have those things.
Re:Gravitricity by ChuckMcM on Saturday November 22, 2014 @08:26PM (#8647434)
Actually an inclined plane and a hole in the ground are identical in terms of their energy storage, both are a function of their highest and lowest points. Which suggests a very simple implementation which is to run a pair of rails up the side of a mountain and but the winder/generator at the top and tie it off to the end of a rail car filled with rocks. Sure you would give up some efficiency with the friction of rail on steel but it would be pretty cheap to implement. On some of the alluvial fans in the Mohave it would make for an interested 'excess energy' storage mechanism for solar.

That said, how are those gravity fed porch lights doing? That seems like it would be an interesting proxy here.

Re:Gravitricity by michaelhoney on Sunday November 23, 2014 @02:19AM (#8648071)
I have seen the 1830s-sh remains of such a system in Tasmania. They sent coal in buggies down a ~200m inclined railway to the dock below, using it as counterweight to haul goods up the hill. Win-win!
Re:Gravitricity by pm90 on Saturday November 22, 2014 @09:11PM (#8647547)
I think the important factor here is the possibility of placing these things anywhere one wants. If mountains are available, I don't see why not (except maybe they would ruin the natural beauty and hence tourism...but I don't know how much impact that has). But if they are not, you can always just dig a big hole.
Re:Gravitricity by bodyfour on Sunday November 23, 2014 @02:20AM (#8648073)
Suppose you have standard rail tracks and use a surplus freight train. Congratulations, you can now store the amount of energy needed to push a single train up a single mountain. That's not nothing, but it probably isn't enough to be useful on a utility scale.

That implies that you want a weight orders of magnitude more than a train (or many trains per charge "cycle" with a stockyard at each and of the mountain to store them) You're now going to need a very tough track and wheelset. They're also going to wear quickly. Probably enough to make it impractical to build and operate.

Re:Gravitricity by mmcconnell1618 on Saturday November 22, 2014 @09:16PM (#8647560)
External rails on a mountain don't allow for the optional compressed air part of the system that (according to the page) can double the efficiency of the system at less than double the cost.
Re:Gravitricity by tempestn on Saturday November 22, 2014 @10:03PM (#8647663)
Also it uses way more valuable surface area. Especially when you consider the safety measures that would be required.
Re:Gravitricity by DennisP on Sunday November 23, 2014 @08:19AM (#8648707)
Here's a related idea: take a piece of land made of granite. Cut a 1km diameter plug of granite, one km deep. Store power by pumping water under the plug, raising the whole thing half a kilometer in the air. It would store enough energy to power Germany for a day.

http://www.solarserver.com/solar-magazine/solar-energy-syste...

Re:Gravitricity by ortusdux on Saturday November 22, 2014 @07:53PM (#8647337)
I feel this idea would mesh well with the mining industry. Dig straight down, reinforce the walls on the way, separate out the desired minerals, pull up the drill, put in a pendulum and move the rig over and start again. You already need to setup giant motors to move the pendulum, so getting the ore up would be easy. An ideal site would have an abundance of lead, which would cut down on the pendulum cost. Unused rock could be mixed into cement for the walls. The small footprint combined with the benefits of being able to store solar or wind energy for long periods of time could make it the first form of mining that environmentalists approve of.
Re:Gravitricity by throwaway_yy2Di on Sunday November 23, 2014 @04:58AM (#8648308)
Actually, the majority of the weight would be in steel rope.

For one type [0], the safe limit is a tensile load of about 134-150 MN/m^2 (= MPa) [1]. At a density of 8 g/cm^3, the limiting length of a uniform cable is ~1.7 - 1.9 kilometers. If you have a stationary, suspended cable of this length, its own weight puts it at its maximum load; it can't lift anything else.

Steel rope on McMaster is around $10,000/ton [of rope]. So, these assumptions are a dead end.

You can't solve this by using shorter cables, because that decreases your energy capacity at the same rate. If you use cables of 1/10th the length (~100 m), you get only 1/10th the potential energy storage per ton. The cable thickness per lifted ton is constant.

[0] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wire-rope-strength-d_1518....

[1] The breaking limit of rope is far higher (~700 MPa), and the breaking limit of a single wire strand -- the tensile strength -- is higher still (1,770 MPa according to [2])

For the cross section area, I'm assuming a circular rope (not accurate).

[2] http://www.gabaswire.com/en/overview/grades-of-wire-rope.htm...

Re:Gravitricity by throwaway_yy2Di on Sunday November 23, 2014 @05:33AM (#8648367)
"You can't solve this by using shorter cables, because that decreases your energy capacity at the same rate. If you use cables of 1/10th the length (~100 m), you get only 1/10th the potential energy storage per ton. The cable thickness per lifted ton is constant."

This is a simple "figure of merit" for cable in this problem,

    cost / (length * load capacity (N))
The is the same as the cost / energy stored. The denominator is simply the work equation (distance * force) -- the mechanical work the cable can do before it runs out of length.

    = cost / energy
This is actually sort-of constant, since the denominator is ~proportional to the cable volume. (The load capacity is ~ the cross sectional area d^2).

For steel rope from [0], it looks like a lower bound of about $1,200/kWh.

[0] http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-wire-rope/=upui3o

(E.g. item "3440T68", 5/8" plain steel, $5.16/foot for 9,080 lbf lifting capacity;

$5.16 / (9,080 lbf * 1 foot) = $1,509/kWh)

Re:Gravitricity by malambic on Saturday November 22, 2014 @08:41PM (#8647482)
Can we get a source for the $100M per kilometer figure? The NYC subway system has 373 km of tunnels, 60% of which is underground, which would translate to roughly 22 billion dollars just for the digging... that just seems way too high to me.
Re:Gravitricity by Anechoic on Saturday November 22, 2014 @09:14PM (#8647555)
2nd Avenue subway [0] requires about 8.5 miles worth of tunnels (several hundred feet of which were already dug back in the 70's) and it's budget is $17 billion. Of course that whole cost isn't just for digging tunnels, but it's a clear indication that digging tunnels (especially in dense urban areas) can be extremely expensive.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Avenue_Subway

Re:Gravitricity by Panoramix on Sunday November 23, 2014 @06:40AM (#8648497)
There is a very large difference between building complex tunnels and a simple hole in the ground. The cost for drilling a straight exploratory/mining hole was 10 Million/km in the 70's and 80's[0]. I can easily imagine this being cheaper by a factor of 2-5 with current advances. Not to mention this concept has a lot of synergy with mining companies.

[0] http://facstaff.gpc.edu/~pgore/geology/geo101/interior.htm

Re:Gravitricity by Anechoic on Sunday November 23, 2014 @11:47AM (#8649165)
There is a difference, but it's not necessarily large for deep drilling. Once you start drilling large diameter holes deep into the ground, you have to shore up that hole to prevent it from collapsing in on itself. For wells or expiatory holes, water or slurry is used, but that's not an option in this case, so there will need to be a casing involve. Installing that casing so that the pieces line line up perfectly is a complex endeavor (not impossible, it's been done, just not straight forward as "drill a hole")
Re:Gravitricity by PhasmaFelis on Saturday November 22, 2014 @09:48PM (#8647634)
> Now, you can't fill the whole tunnel perfectly or the air can't escape, so our total volume of mass will be about 25 m^2 1000 m = 25,000 cubic meters.*

You seem to have accidentally assumed that the weight will stretch the full height of the hole. Obviously this would leave it unable to move vertically.

Re:Gravitricity by malandrew on Saturday November 22, 2014 @08:02PM (#8647371)
What's the math look like for the side of a mountain or hill, where you pour a concrete channel and put wheels on the weight so it can be rolled up and down the hill. I'm just wondering if there are places like in the Rockies where this idea would be viable.
Re:Gravitricity by Throwaway12928 on Sunday November 23, 2014 @04:00AM (#8648218)
Or what about the ocean? It's 4km deep on average, so why not just drop the weights there? No need for setting up tracks or carrying the weight up a mountain.
Re:Gravitricity by fractalsea on Saturday November 22, 2014 @08:07PM (#8647383)
I don't understand why they need to dig holes to do this. Why not build something equivalent onto the side of a cliff?
Re:Gravitricity by jstanek on Saturday November 22, 2014 @08:36PM (#8647465)
The depth requirement is 500m to 1500m. Though cliffs can be much taller than this, they usually are not totally vertical and cannot accomodate this much depth.

Disclaimer, not a geologist.

Re:Gravitricity by fractalsea on Sunday November 23, 2014 @09:21AM (#8648850)
True, although I wonder if doing it over even a 100m cliff, but with a much larger weight, would be cheaper than the drilling operation.
Re:Gravitricity by dools on Saturday November 22, 2014 @09:00PM (#8647526)
It looks as though compressed air is a key component.
Re:Gravitricity by dgemm on Saturday November 22, 2014 @09:37PM (#8647613)
It's not.
Re:Gravitricity by tempestn on Sunday November 23, 2014 @12:37AM (#8647922)
It's not a key component, but it is a significant benefit of their system. The main reason though is that the primary benefit of this system is flexibility of placement. By locating grid storage close to where it's used most, you save significantly on transmission losses (and infrastructure). Finding sufficient vertical cliffs would be even more difficult than finding suitable locations for pumped hydro.

Also if you expose the weight to open air and wind the whole system would be much trickier than using an enclosed shaft.

Re:Gravitricity by bluthru on Saturday November 22, 2014 @10:39PM (#8647721)
>On the one hand, these holes would be vertical, which is harder than horizontal

I don't think this is the case. We dig vertical holes all the time for wells, geothermal, and pilings for buildings: http://www.bdonline.co.uk/Pictures/web/r/r/g/CCTV_17_foundat...

Look at all of them! For one building!

Re:Gravitricity by Gurkenglas on Saturday November 22, 2014 @07:42PM (#8647306)
If the capacity is proportional to the depth of the tunnel and the mass of the weights, and the maximal mass of the weights is proportional to the depth of the tunnel, then wouldn't the capacity grow quadratically with the invested money?

Edit: You assumed that they can both fill most of the tunnel up with lead and move that up or down 500 meters. The volume that they can fill with that is thus only half of what you say.

Re:Gravitricity by msandford on Saturday November 22, 2014 @07:49PM (#8647323)
Why is the maximal mass of weights proportional to depth? It's more proportional to diameter than anything else. There's a practical limit to how much weight you can hang. Sure if you make a 10km deep hole and a 3km deep weight you could store a lot of energy. But a 3km deep weight might not hold itself together.
Re:Gravitricity by Gurkenglas on Saturday November 22, 2014 @07:58PM (#8647359)
If we have enough volume that we can't use the most dense possible weight for all of it, we can find cheaper weight materials by dropping the density constraint.

Couldn't you have the weight grip the sides of the tunnel with gears attached to a generator/motor (inside the weight) so the weight wouldn't rip itself apart? It would be the same machinery that ordinarily would operate the pulley at the top, just moved down into the weights (cause with this, you would need no more pulley). (To illustrate why it wouldn't rip itself apart, imagine gaps on the weight every 100 meters.)

Re:Gravitricity by msandford on Saturday November 22, 2014 @08:32PM (#8647454)
Technically that would work fine. Economically, it's a disaster. McMaster prices are at least 2x what's available if you buy direct from a source, and if you were buying in bulk it'd probably get cheaper still. But this is cheap, cheap stuff for not that much weight. You'd need something I dunno, 100x-10000x stronger to do what you're talking about: http://www.mcmaster.com/#racks-and-pinions/=upn9xl

The appeal of the cables is that they're cheap. And they're cheap because they're easy to make (all things considered). Once you start applying sophistication to the design the price gets higher, and it's already too high from having to drill the hole.

Re:Gravitricity by sargun on Saturday November 22, 2014 @10:40PM (#8647724)
What about depleted Uranium? 19G / cm^3, 1.7 the density of lead. No idea what the cost is, but I can't imagine that waste material would be that costly.
Re:Gravitricity by tomp on Saturday November 22, 2014 @08:12PM (#8647398)
How are you going to hang a 280 000 ton weight, and more importantly, how are you going to move it up and down?
Re:Gravitricity by PhasmaFelis on Saturday November 22, 2014 @09:58PM (#8647654)
You're not. Apsec's math is based on the weight being as tall as the hole is deep, which obviously doesn't make sense.
Re:Gravitricity by pm90 on Saturday November 22, 2014 @09:19PM (#8647569)
We can use steel cables. I can't find concrete reference atm, but I'm sure it can be done
Re:Gravitricity by the_cat_kittles on Saturday November 22, 2014 @07:36PM (#8647284)
wouldn't this last a lot longer than lithium batteries?
Re:Gravitricity by msandford on Saturday November 22, 2014 @07:47PM (#8647318)
Maybe? But what if it cost way, way more? You actually have to look at the time value of money for anything that takes more than a year or two to pay off to be sure that there isn't some kind of false economy.

If you assume that the thing lasts forever, well, you divide $x/infinity so it's free. EXCEPT that you've got $x tied up that could be earning interest instead. So it's not $x/infinity, it's the opportunity cost on $x versus anything else out there like batteries, the grid, etc.