News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:New Tube for London by danielbln on Thursday October 09, 2014 @07:15AM (#8431660)
Works well in lots of places: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_...

Of course people whose jobs are affected by these systems will speak ill of it, I'm sure the carriage drivers union wasn't very pleased with the automobile back in the day either. We will see the same thing for trucks and cabs real soon.

Re:New Tube for London by agumonkey on Thursday October 09, 2014 @10:29AM (#8432541)
The 14th line in Paris is driverless I believe. With automated doors on decks I don't think there was a single life critical incident. Wikipedia reports a bunch of system locks before 2007. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligne_14_du_m%C3%A9tro_de_Paris...

This article says http://rue89.nouvelobs.com/2007/08/29/les-suicides-du-metro-... not a single incident has been reported last year.

That said I wonder how much of it is due to the decks door.

With added benefit that it is strike free, the line works later at night ... I wish none of the employees to be jobless or worse, but it's hard to justify using people to drive metros.

Re:New Tube for London by pi-err on Thursday October 09, 2014 @12:22PM (#8433362)
I get that building a _new_ automated metro is easy. Converting an _older_ line to automatic and fully driverless is what's hard. AFAIK, there's only one conversion so far to full auto: Line 1 in Paris. It took 10 years and billions of euro to deliver (it's a total success though) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Métro_Line_1#Automation

Interestingly, it seems the main obstacle is software - contractors are few, code is highly specific, ISO certification and warranty issues are very unattractive.

Very interested how TfL will approach this. They're really good at what they do, even at communicating (responsive website!). Don't think anybody does it better.

Re:New Tube for London by nawitus on Thursday October 09, 2014 @12:38PM (#8433477)
They're [trying](http://www.automaattimetro.fi/en) to do that in Finland. The cost is around 170 million euros now, even though the projected cost was 100 million.
Re:New Tube for London by masklinn on Thursday October 09, 2014 @11:38AM (#8433010)
> That said I wonder how much of it is due to the decks door.

I'm sure they help (if only psychologically), but the Lyon line D doesn't have quay doors and it's been running fully automatically since 1992. The only incident I know of is a drunk person falling on top of the metro (trying to jump from a mezzanine to the quay and missing) and hitting a camera in a tunnel. No death.

Re:New Tube for London by iaskwhy on Thursday October 09, 2014 @07:36AM (#8431745)
Keep in mind section "Systems and lines with ATO and human driver (Grade of Automation 2)": most tube lines are already automated (to a point), it's just that there's still someone seating there at the helm.
Re:New Tube for London by masklinn on Thursday October 09, 2014 @08:06AM (#8431859)
I'm guessing that's why danielbln linked specifically to the Grade 4 section, rather than the whole article.
Re:New Tube for London by ochoseis on Thursday October 09, 2014 @11:50AM (#8433109)
On the topic of automating train functions, one of my biggest pet peeves is when the conductor is responsible for [inaudibly, or plain just not] announcing stops. DC and NYC are really irritating...NYC is automating it on some lines though.
Re:New Tube for London by aturek on Thursday October 09, 2014 @12:36PM (#8433463)
London's mostly awful when the drivers are doing it, but I believe they've been automating more and more lines with stop announcements
Re:New Tube for London by Deusdies on Thursday October 09, 2014 @12:11PM (#8433285)
Wow, this is still not automated in DC and NYC? I don't remember a time when it was not automated in Vienna.
Re:New Tube for London by ealexhudson on Thursday October 09, 2014 @09:06AM (#8432090)
Victoria, Central and Jubilee are all "driverless". But they have drivers. There are actual reasons for this.
Re:New Tube for London by simpleigh on Thursday October 09, 2014 @09:23AM (#8432164)
Care to share any?

Reasons I can think of:

Existing automation may be insufficiently good to cope with adverse weather and unplanned situations. Technology has moved on considerably since the Victoria, Central and Jubilee stock. We're automating cars now, after all. The article mentions a new signalling system being rolled out in support.

Lack of platform-edge doors. TfL have stated they won't run driverless trains without these. These are planned for installation on the Piccadilly line as part of the new stock rollout.

Re:New Tube for London by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday October 09, 2014 @11:24AM (#8432930)
One of the actual reasons is that drivers go through intensive training (er...) as first-call engineers.

If a fault stops a train, it's far more useful to have someone on the scene to try emergency repairs than to wait until the train can be cleared from a tunnel - because a stopped train can literally hold up the commute of millions of people.

There are also safety issues. Drivers are trained in passenger management, and every so often they need that training to deal with fights, illness, suicides, or all the other messy things that happen on a public transport system - the public part of that being at least as important as the transport part.

Re:New Tube for London by michaelt on Thursday October 09, 2014 @12:09PM (#8433259)

  Drivers are trained in passenger management, and every so 
  often they need that training to deal with fights, 
  illness, suicides, or all the other messy things that 
  happen on a public transport system
As I understand it in a lot of the London trains it's not possible to move between carriages - so the driver can only deal with fights, illness, suicides etc over CCTV or by stopping at a station?
Re:New Tube for London by yangyang on Thursday October 09, 2014 @04:36PM (#8434906)
There are doors but they are not for use in normal circumstances. The new Victoria Line trains were initially supposed to be "space trains", open all the way through, but didn't actually end up getting built like that.
Re:New Tube for London by sthulbourn on Thursday October 09, 2014 @09:45AM (#8432276)
The line is equipped with an Automatic Train Operation system (ATO); the train operator (driver) closes the train doors and presses a pair of "start" buttons, and if the way ahead is clear, the ATO drives the train at a safe speed to the next station and stops it there. This system has operated since the line opened in 1968, making the Victoria line the world's first full-scale automatic railway.[20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_line

Re:New Tube for London by ealexhudson on Thursday October 09, 2014 @10:51AM (#8432672)
Platform edge doors is definitely part of it - people get stuck in the gap, children fall through, there's few practical driverless systems that can cope with that. Yet there are some places - e.g. Central line - where the gap is almost a foot between train and platform. The doors aren't the only problem, it's the whole carriage, on those curved sections.
Re:New Tube for London by masklinn on Thursday October 09, 2014 @09:16AM (#8432132)
What "actual reasons" aside from inertia? The section danielbln linked to are UTO, they're fully automated and unattended (some of the trains don't even have a driver cabin, passengers can seat at the very front of the train) and most have been running for years if not decades without incidents (that I know of).
Re:New Tube for London by vidarh on Thursday October 09, 2014 @09:21AM (#8432158)
RMT (the union) mainly (there may be actual technical reasons too for some lines, but any technical reasons are likely to largely be a result of knowing that there's no point in investing too aggressively in enabling full automation if they won't be able to make full use of it). Notice the page takes care to point out that current drivers jobs are safe.

It's likely that London Underground is basically betting it'll be easier to just hire at less than the replacement rate and gradually automate more and more rather than risk massive conflict with the RMT for years.

Re:New Tube for London by gadders on Thursday October 09, 2014 @09:33AM (#8432208)
Unions?
Re:New Tube for London by SideburnsOfDoom on Thursday October 09, 2014 @11:39AM (#8433016)
Only one Union: The mighty RMT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Union_of_Rail,_Maritim...

it was until recently headed by the late great Bob Crow http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26527325

Re:New Tube for London by gadders on Thursday October 09, 2014 @03:34PM (#8434582)
I work in Canary Wharf. I'm more than familiar with the RMT :-)