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Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by clay_to_n on Wednesday September 10, 2014 @08:53PM (#8300241)
Wow, very powerful article. I agree that our prison system is America's biggest moral wrong, and I hope that history books in 50 years write about how sad and unjust it is in our time.

That said, does anyone know what proposed solutions are? When the author talks of abolishing the prison system in exchange for higher crime rates (and potentially even more deaths by the state), does he literally mean we should close all prisons (like he seems to say near the end)? I'd love to see more articles / writing about this, and proposed solutions with specifics about how many people could be removed from the prison system, estimates for increases in capital punishment (if arguing we should have more), etc.

Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by kazagistar on Wednesday September 10, 2014 @09:00PM (#8300270)
The problem presented is very real, but the proposed "solution" is absurd. There are plenty of way functional prison systems. As long as we stop dehumanizing felons and normalizing crimes against them, I see no reason why reform is impossible.
Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by jessaustin on Thursday September 11, 2014 @07:25AM (#8301913)
Reasonable prison systems incarcerate much smaller percentages of their populations than the USA one does. Any reform worth contemplating will result in the release of many prisoners, and the closure of prisons in all but the most overcrowded states.
Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by Ntrails on Thursday September 11, 2014 @09:34AM (#8302431)
Already in the Prison Treatment Act of 1945, the view was expressed that the deprivation of freedom itself should be regarded as the penal element of a prison sentence and not the actual prison experience itself. Thus, the PTA of 1974 states explicitly that an inmate shall be treated with respect for his or her human dignity. [1]

As ever when I look for an country that I think will be an example of doing something well, I start with the nordics. And I see that Sweden has recently closed 4 prisons because they don't have enough prisoners to fill them any more. [2]

I would love to hear counter points if my cursory reading has missed something - but in general I was once again impressed by the attitudes I see there.

[1] http://www.internationalpenalandpenitentiaryfoundation.org/S... [2]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/11/sweden-closes-p...

Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by reitanqild on Thursday September 11, 2014 @10:11AM (#8302655)
Counterpoint: the Norwegian government is considering hiring capacity in the Netherlands for 700 long term prisoners. Sweden is said to have considered hiring capacity as well but decided against because of the legal minefield surrounding this topic.

(Edit: Since this is possibly controversial, here are a few Norwegian sources: https://www.google.com/search?q=soning+i+Nederland )

Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by kazagistar on Thursday September 11, 2014 @04:28PM (#8304966)
Agreed. But the reform proposed in the article stated unconditional "abolishment" as the goal. That is crazy.
Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by hawleyal on Monday September 15, 2014 @08:54AM (#8318474)
So systemic and institutional torture is fine, as long as the rest of us are marginally "safer".
Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by hawleyal on Friday September 12, 2014 @11:31AM (#8308559)
The money for this is not available. It is an ideal that cannot be attained.
Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by jacquesm on Saturday September 13, 2014 @05:26AM (#8311964)
The current system actually costs more to society, so the money is definitely available.
Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by angersock on Wednesday September 10, 2014 @09:06PM (#8300305)
The only way to get this fixed (peacefully) is to raise a ruckus and get the public to fight their elected officials into Doing the Right Thing.

You can bet your ass that the number of dollars able to be rallied for this purpose is dwarfed by the incumbent interests. Further, it's trivial to say "Do you want to have your kid growing up next to an evil ~=felon=~?" and sway votes, because people are not rational above family-unit decisions.

So, understanding that it's probably a hopeless cause, the best thing you can do is support ex-felons, help them find work and learn useful skills, and vote whenever possible for anything that helps curtail or curb the police state.

That means voting for legalization of everything, full stop. That means voting for reduced surveillance powers, full stop. That means voting for less defense spending, full stop. That means voting for fewer crimes and smaller police forces, full stop. Anything else is playing into the hands of the oppressors.

Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by JoeAltmaier on Thursday September 11, 2014 @07:38AM (#8301964)
Problem is, prisons like all government institutions are controlled by fads and fears and money - Senators don't do anything until votes are at stake or campaigning dollars. So nothing happens for a long time, and then Bang some extreme measure is passed to show that they care or something.

We closed the mental institutions and released folks into the general population, and that didn't work very well. Closing the prisons would be worse, because some of the people in there actually mean to do us harm.

Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by angersock on Thursday September 11, 2014 @12:12PM (#8303421)
Closing the prisons would be worse, because some of the people in there actually mean to do us harm.

This doesn't follow. Prisons are not equivalent to mental health institutions; there's a lot more at play there.

Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday September 16, 2014 @09:58AM (#8324473)
After the mental health facilities were closed, they pretty much became the same thing.
Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by tormeh on Thursday September 11, 2014 @06:34AM (#8301786)
The max-security ones need to be kept. Some people are just bastards and can't be helped. Punishment has no effect on them - what we need is to lock them up for life. But that's maybe 5% or less of the prison population. Legalize drugs, and have a social security system that means no one has to steal and suddenly almost everyone else is out. The remainder need rehabilitation, which probably needs to happen in a prison.
Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by candu on Thursday September 11, 2014 @11:21AM (#8303052)
> Some people are just bastards and can't be helped.

I'd say that's a difficult assertion to prove in a system that provides every incentive for recidivism. In addition, how would you (or anyone else) fairly evaluate who falls into this category?

Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by tormeh on Thursday September 11, 2014 @12:08PM (#8303397)
A brainscan for psychopathy would be a first step. Honestly, I would outsource that to psychologists.
Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by baddox on Thursday September 11, 2014 @01:47PM (#8303984)
As far as I know, there is no "brainscan for psycopathy." Moreover, I don't think the field of psychology has a very strong record regarding the diagnosis and treatment of prisoners.
Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by lutusp on Thursday September 11, 2014 @01:52PM (#8304016)
> Moreover, I don't think the field of psychology has a very strong record regarding the diagnosis and treatment of prisoners.

Or anyone else, for that matter. Tom Widiger, who served as head of research for DSM-IV, says "There are lots of studies which show that clinicians diagnose most of their patients with one particular disorder and really don't systematically assess for other disorders. They have a bias in reference to the disorder that they are especially interested in treating and believe that most of their patients have."

The reason should be obvious -- unlike medicine, psychological diagnoses rely on assessing symptoms, not the detection and treatment of causes.

Psychiatrists and psychologists who serve on parole boards have a record no better than chance. When they say that a person is no longer a threat and merits release, based on their accuracy and predictive track record, they might as well flip a coin.

Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by broseph on Thursday September 11, 2014 @02:22PM (#8304191)
So basically your argument is that phrenology just wasn't advanced enough yet?
Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by watwut on Thursday September 11, 2014 @12:02PM (#8303341)
The max-security ones are the ones that are biggest problem. They exacerbate mental problems the person had and often release people back into society unable to function normally. And no, not all the people who are locked there were repeatedly violent.
Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by tormeh on Thursday September 11, 2014 @12:14PM (#8303442)
Well, my uneducated opinion is that an individual either shouldn't be in maximum security or should never be let out except when a team of psychologists says *he's good.
Re:Raise the Crime Rate (2012) by hawleyal on Friday September 12, 2014 @11:32AM (#8308564)
What would happen if there was not a prison system at all?