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Re:A Traditional City Primer by rayiner on Saturday July 26, 2014 @06:33PM (#8091068)
My new apt is next to Balitmore Penn Station. I can be at BWI within 20 minutes of walking out my front door, and from there anywhere in the country. Yeah, the TSA is oppressive, but there's actually very little actual power other than not letting you board the plane. Cops have real power, and they exercise it over drivers. You know how much you hate getting bossed around by TSA agents? Car ownership is like that, except every day.

Then there is the danger: I got hit by an oil truck merging into my lane. Nearly got run off the road by another truck going through Baltimore Harbor Tunnel (asshole didn't realize until the last minute one of the tunnels was closed). Nearly got killed by a tire falling off a big rig while on the highway. Nearly got killed fishtailing on an icy bridge in New York. That's just the last 18 months. On my commute to Philly I see some poor asshole crashed by the side of the road several times a month. In a year, I've never walked by a murder scene in "dangerous" Philly. I've almost certainly passed by more than one fatal accident in that time.

Car ownership brings your average middle class white American into contact with two things they normally don't have to deal with: death and police oppression.

PS: On the issue of 16 year olds having cars--that's absolutely terrifying. What blows my mind is that I seem alone in finding it terrifying. People worry about their kids in the city, but at least you can buy your way out of that danger. How often do you hear of an upper middle class white or asian kid getting shot in Chicago? Meanwhile, about a dozen teenagers die in car accidents every year in the upper middle class white/asian suburban county where I grew up.

Re:A Traditional City Primer by eqdw on Saturday July 26, 2014 @07:57PM (#8091355)
Hey man, I share your fear. I hate cars. I hate driving.

I live in the SF Bay Area. I work in downtown San Francisco. When I lived in SF proper, it would usually be faster to walk somewhere than drive, because of traffic. Then factor in finding parking. Then factor in paying for parking (upwards of $10/hr anywhere important). Add the stress of driving in dense areas, moronic pedestrian tourists who wander into the middle of the the streets, cyclists who seem to have a death wish, and other drivers who act like it's an aggression competition

Now I live across the bay (I got gentrified out of SF), and it's even worse. The freeway nearest me is bumper-to-bumper stop and go across 5 lanes of traffic, for 3 hours in the morning and for 3 hours in the evening. Everyone is just as aggressive, but the speeds have quintupled.

Bignaj mentions freedom. Shortly after buying my car, I went up to Portland for a conference. I thought, FUCK YEAH ROAD TRIP. Well, for one, turns out 11 hours of driving in one day is hard. I looked at the radio at the wrong moment and almost killed myself. I burned about $250 worth of gas round trip. And once I got to Portland, parking was $30 a night. After the trip was over, when I came home, I priced out airplane tickets. A round trip for both my girlfriend and myself, was cheaper than the cost of gas + parking in Portland. It would have saved us the better part of a day's worth of time (at Bay Area tech salaries, $400), and it would have given me a 100% reduction in near-death experiences. Maybe it's because I'm Canadian, and used to Air Canada prices, but airline travel is so cheap in this country that, for the vast majority of places people want to go, flying there is cheaper and easier than driving. I don't see how car = freedom in that regard.

I own a car. I wish I didn't, but I already have it. It's paid in full, I have a flawless driving record so insurance isn't that bad. I like going on day trips hiking. I've run the numbers, renting a car every day I want to hike would be cheaper than buying the car, but the car is already bought and depreciated at this point so too late on that. I would've traded my car for a smart car or scooter years ago if it wasn't for that. And I'd be doing without that if I could afford to live in a walkable place here.

Cars are horrible, and most utilitarian arguments for them are terrible.

And P.S.: That horrifies me too. Every 3 months, one 9/11 worth of americans die in motor vehicle accidents. We haven't declared a war on driving yet

Re:A Traditional City Primer by peatmoss on Sunday July 27, 2014 @11:42AM (#8093030)
The rental option is really compelling. In Seattle, the missus and I use a mix of biking, walking, public transit, Car2go, Zip car, and UberX. Not owning a car, we make a choice each and every time we go somewhere that balances convenience, travel time, and cost. We save heaps of money, and stay in shape by not having a "default drive" option.

When people have already bought a car and paid a flat insurance rate, the marginal cost of another car trip is very low. Thus, people who own cars don't really make a choice very frequently. Their choice has already been pretty much made once at the outset.

Because carsharing services will almost undoubtedly be the first deployments, self-driving cars cannot come quickly enough for me. I think the net effect is that they will drive (har har) more people to adopt carsharing services. Self-driving cars will solve one of the inconveniences of something like Car2go, namely the need to walk some indeterminate distance to a car.

If they can get more people into an a la carte transportation usage model, I anticipate public transit and non-motorized transportation options will benefit greatly. Since trip costs will only be marginal, the choice to do something other than drive will come up routinely.

As self-driving carsharing fleets replace the >90% idle private vehicles of today, we'll need less land for parking. My hope is that on-street land can be given over to wider sidewalks, better quality bicycling infrastructure, and dedicated transit right-of-way, which will make those modes even more competitive.

In part because I've been personally touched by the mass slaughter on our roadways, I left a career in information security to retrain / work as an urban planner focussing on transportation. Oddly, the nearishness of self-driving vehicles is pushing me back in the direction of my former career. I'm bullish enough on the potential of self-driving vehicles to remake the economics and safety of transportation that I'm now pursuing a PhD researching privacy / security aspects of the "smart city"--including on-demand mobility services. If we can get all this suitably right, I think it will be transformative for society.

Re:A Traditional City Primer by paddy_m on Sunday July 27, 2014 @12:46PM (#8093222)
The rental option is not at all compelling in NYC (where I live). If you want to get away for the weekend, you are looking at a $275 to $350 rental if you go to Jersey to pick it up. Going to Jersey is an extra hour (and $7.50 per person ferry ride), plus once you're over there, you're going to take a taxi to get to the rental place. You could rent in Manhattan, but then you're looking at $500 for the weekend. With all of that, you have to get to the rental place before they close on Friday, and hope the location you are returning to is open late on Sunday.

I got so annoyed when family members would say "just rent a car and come down to visit us". It's not cheap, it's not easy, and it's not fun.

Renting a car in Stamford, CT is cheap, ~$70 a day.

Re:A Traditional City Primer by kimdouglasmason on Sunday July 27, 2014 @04:23PM (#8093865)
Zipcar. CityCarShare. A number of other organizations.

Zipcar now have differential pricing (i.e. more expensive on weekends), so a 24 hour rent Mon - Fri is under $100.

Expensive, you may say. But... I pay only $70 per year for a full insurance waiver, all fuel is included, and there are no maintenance costs or other hidden costs.

Last Zipcar I got I used almost a full fuel-tank worth in a 24 hour period. Subtracting fuel from the price put the days rental at about $40. And there's a pod across the street from my apartment (and about a zillion other pods nearby, here in Berkeley CA).

I have friends with a 2-kid family in Manhattan and no car. They use Alamo, and claim it's cheap and easy.

Renting is expensive. Owning a car is also expensive, with more 'hidden' costs that people frequently ignore.

Re:A Traditional City Primer by peatmoss on Sunday July 27, 2014 @01:13PM (#8093298)
You don't have Zipcar? That's what we use for weekend getaways. The cost and convenience of it makes it an okay deal. We also ride share with friends for hiking, take ferries, trains, bikes, etc.
Re:A Traditional City Primer by pchristensen on Sunday July 27, 2014 @12:11AM (#8091937)
Not every 3 months, every month
Re:A Traditional City Primer by Houshalter on Saturday July 26, 2014 @07:25PM (#8091232)
You seem to have a very very bad experience with cops. The majority of people are not afraid of driving any more than being ticketed for jay walking. And as you said, if you want to travel without cars you have to deal with the TSA and that nonsense.

Cars are certainly dangerous. You have a very good point there. But people have so accepted the risk they aren't going to change their entire lifestyle to eliminate it. And in a few years self-driving cars will fix it.

Re:A Traditional City Primer by enraged_camel on Saturday July 26, 2014 @08:19PM (#8091425)
>>You seem to have a very very bad experience with cops.

I don't know of anyone who would describe their experiences with cops as "pleasant."

Re:A Traditional City Primer by eschutte2 on Saturday July 26, 2014 @11:22PM (#8091851)
I would. I've had six or seven interactions with the police in the last eight years or so, and they were all pleasant. Well, except for one guy who yelled at me to slow down, but that wasn't really an interaction.
Re:A Traditional City Primer by avn2109 on Sunday July 27, 2014 @02:14AM (#8092124)
Well, there is a right way to interact with the police, and many wrong ways.

E.g. pull over (waaaay over. Much farther than you think is plausible), hands visible at all times, very slow movements, eye contact, dome lights on, shoulder muscles relaxed, etc. Most people do ~0 of these things unless they have been coached.

Failing to do these things, esp. while being young/male/profiled socioeconomic group, can drastically change one's experience with the law.

[0] http://www.amazon.com/A-Speeders-Guide-Avoiding-Tickets/dp/0...

Re:A Traditional City Primer by hueving on Saturday July 26, 2014 @10:27PM (#8091752)
I've been driving for close to 20 years and never have been pulled over. Equating dealing with cops to dealing with the TSA is moronic.
Re:A Traditional City Primer by enraged_camel on Saturday July 26, 2014 @11:26PM (#8091863)
So you never actually had any experience with cops.

I don't see how that invalidates what I said.

Re:A Traditional City Primer by hueving on Sunday July 27, 2014 @11:03PM (#8094938)
I've had experiences with police, but not from driving. You are forced to interact with the TSA when flying, but you aren't forced to interact with the police when driving. Is it that hard to understand how that makes his entire post pointless? It's like complaining about how you have to interact with the FBI every time you fly because you make jokes about bombs.
Re:A Traditional City Primer by mwfunk on Sunday July 27, 2014 @12:49AM (#8092028)
I have had numerous positive or neutral experiences with cops, and a few bad ones (including numerous tickets and getting arrested, but in all cases I earned those bad experiences). Overall, I would much much rather have cops than not have cops.
Re:A Traditional City Primer by Houshalter on Saturday July 26, 2014 @08:45PM (#8091486)
I mean in terms of dealing with them a lot. I do agree they are not pleasant.
Re:A Traditional City Primer by michaelochurch on Saturday July 26, 2014 @08:57PM (#8091514)
The safest speed to go is the flow of traffic. Sometimes that's 15-20 miles per hour over the speed limit. It's rare that cops ticket safe drivers for speeding, but it happens (IME, about once every 5 years). Tickets themselves weren't a big deal if you're a good driver who gets unlucky occasionally, until insurance got involved and started hiking up the prices. Depending on your state and insurance policy, a $100 speeding ticket can end up costing $1,000 or more.

"Police oppression" might be a bit farther than I'd go, because I rarely get speeding tickets. But the speed limits are under-posted and you can get a nasty insurance hit even while driving safely.

Re:A Traditional City Primer by Houshalter on Monday July 28, 2014 @02:40PM (#8098575)
You say you are driving 15-20 miles per hour over the speed limit and then wonder why you are getting tickets and higher insurance...

Even if "but everyone else is doing it" was an excuse, that defeats the argument about excessive law enforcement. If anything there obviously isn't enough law enforcement.

Re:A Traditional City Primer by kd0amg on Saturday July 26, 2014 @09:40PM (#8091630)
Airports are a fine substitute if you're going from one major city to another, but I sure wouldn't have flown from Houghton to Traverse. It was only when I moved to Boston that not having a car meant freedom.
Re:A Traditional City Primer by dajohnson89 on Saturday July 26, 2014 @07:28PM (#8091240)
Good points. FYI, Washington, D.C.'s Union Station is an hour train ride away from Penn Station.