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Re:The US economy shrank at an annualized rate of 2.9 percen... by dclowd9901 on Wednesday June 25, 2014 @02:23PM (#7945815)
Part of this slowdown in consumer spending also has to do with the tightening of credit as well, making it more difficult for people without means to spend. In my opinion this is a great thing. When people are backed against a wall because they have no other way to pay for their livelihood than their salary, they're not going to be ok with stagnant wages and companies low balling them.

Bring on the pain, I say. Real growth comes from companies investing in their workforce, not people drowning themselves in debt.

Put another way: it used to be that you could buy a house for the equivalent of a year's salary. Now it seems most houses are about 5-6x the average salary of a given area. If that were still the case today, most Bay Area residents should be making near 1 mil/year or houses here should be closer to about $150-200k, more likely the latter since credit is primarily the reason for the inflated cost.

Re:The US economy shrank at an annualized rate of 2.9 percen... by malandrew on Wednesday June 25, 2014 @04:36PM (#7946601)
Interesting observation. It's really hard to shake off the shackles of presentism and imagine what the US would look like on an alternative timeline where the US government had not aggressively promoted home ownership and easy credit. The economy and legislation are now so thoroughly distorted in favor of home ownership that it's difficult to imagine how things could have been different.

Specifically, I'm wondering if there was a time when we were having the same debate about housing that we are now having about college tuition, but that it has been long enough (and there have been economic gains for homeowners) that we conveniently forget how much our longstanding policies drive up housing prices. The idea of buying a home on a full year's salary sounds crazy, but then again there was a time when 4 years of college could be paid off fully via part time work while at school, something that is distant pipe dream these days for the majority of jobs within the reach of most college students.

Re:The US economy shrank at an annualized rate of 2.9 percen... by Zigurd on Wednesday June 25, 2014 @09:49PM (#7947757)
A cost revolution in creating housing is much less likely than MOOCs killing the 3rd tier colleges.

I'd like to be in an alternate universe without the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Afghanistan is famously The Graveyard of Empires, and I wonder if we are not just staggering around with a mortal wound, with another crash coming to bring us down comprehensively. Nationalizing the ibanks instead of TARP would be a nice alternate universe, too.

Re:The US economy shrank at an annualized rate of 2.9 percen... by mikeash on Thursday June 26, 2014 @10:36AM (#7949834)
I think we are the alternate universe. Bush's win over Gore in 2000 was so ridiculous that a half-assed intervention by time-traveling experimental historians almost seems like a reasonable explanation.

It is interesting, and sad, to think of how much may have ended up hanging on a couple of hundred Florida voters. Of course, it may be wrong to think that a Gore presidency would have been all that different.

Re:The US economy shrank at an annualized rate of 2.9 percen... by zghst on Wednesday June 25, 2014 @04:52PM (#7946690)
I wouldn't say that credit is driving up the costs of Bay Area homes, but the amount of wealthy workers in the area.

And also consider that homes built today have to go through tons of regulatory costs (building codes, politics with permits), there are new technologies installed, AC, internet, upgraded roofing, better foundations, upgraded wiring, possibly an HOA, rec center, etc, paved sidewalks in front of every house. The US Census Bureau has also determined that the average size of a home is 2,480 square feet vs 1,600sqft in 1970. All the progress that we have made with homes today costs.

Re:The US economy shrank at an annualized rate of 2.9 percen... by dclowd9901 on Friday June 27, 2014 @01:36PM (#7955197)
Sorry, but I vehemently disagree. With my salary and credit history, I can qualify pretty easily for a $6-800k home. That all-of-a-sudden puts me in a market that I wouldn't have dreamed of being part of before the loan was offered, if, instead, I had to pay cash, or pay a substantial portion of the amount of the home in cash (50-75%, for instance).

If this was true across the board (tightened credit), homes simply would not sell at their current prices. Most people, with the expenses of day-to-day living, would have a very difficult time scrounging up $600k for the down payment of a home, if they could do it at all in their lifetime. Meanwhile the stock of unsold homes and anxious homeowners looking to move would grow. Market forces would eventually push these prices down.

This isn't even theory. This literally happened after the crash when banks stopped loaning money. People wanted to buy houses, and why not? Loan rates were insanely low. But a substantial portion of the population found it difficult to extend their credit further, or get first-time credit, and thus house prices tanked around the country.

You're right that the Bay Area is unique. We have a dangerous combination of: The aforementioned credit, many highly paid people, and people who are younger, and perhaps less intelligent with how they evaluate the value of things, using credit as a sledgehammer to get what they want. But even well-payed engineers couldn't afford the houses around here without substantial credit extension.

Re:The US economy shrank at an annualized rate of 2.9 percen... by crassus on Wednesday June 25, 2014 @02:47PM (#7945966)
I know that people will make political hay of this, but there is danger to managing to quarterly statistics. If your economy needs some adjustments to achieve long-run sustainability then it's possible that GDP may fall for a quarter or two and there's nothing wrong with that.

GDP is a great metric for long-term or inter-national comparison. It's terrible as a quarterly national management metric.