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A comment on Web Starter Kit. Parent comment

Re:Web Starter Kit by malandrew on Thursday June 19, 2014 @03:34PM (#7917885)
If you're not using HTML/CSS for documents then yes it is bad. It's fundamentally the wrong abstraction. I began my career with HTML and CSS and after seeing alternatives, there is no doubt in my mind that trying to build apps on HTML/CSS is fundamentally wrong.

I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of good ideas introduced by the web (documents, hyperlinks, semantic metadata, responsive layouts, accessibility, URIs, etc.). What I'm saying is that there are good parts and there are bad parts, just like with native. What we need is a marriage of the good parts of the web with the good parts of native.

We can do better. Much much much better.

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Re:Web Starter Kit by diminish on Thursday June 19, 2014 @04:00PM (#7917990)
most of the development frameworks called native, are built on the precursor of html, namely 90s and earlier native app apis, on guis, and they arents perfect abstractions for apps neither. Current native zeitgeist gets its allure mostly from being closer to hardware and is the assembly to C. Otherwise all major mobile GUI APIs are naive attempts by busy developers to imitate, layouts, stylesheets,....
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Re:Web Starter Kit by malandrew on Thursday June 19, 2014 @04:08PM (#7918040) 

    "precursor of html"
please elaborate.

HTML is based on XML, a language with two primitives, strings and children. Why would you ever use that as an interface if you want something to ever be performant?

What we need is a retain-mode scene graph, where some of the nodes on the scene graph can be HTML documents (with URIs).

Developers don't want a one-to-one relationship between the window object and documents. They instead want a one-to-many relationship. The <article> tag is proof of this.

Take Twitter for example. What is each tweet, but a 140-character document? The application for displaying an infinite list of tweets is not a document, but a multi-document viewer. The Facebook feed is the same thing.

If anything, this would prevent the shenanigans of blocking viewport resizing, because the user could choose an HTML document node on the scene graph and decide to make it full screen (the same way twitter allows you to click on a time stamp to get a permalink)

This retain-mode scene graph would need to support URIs so that you could always link to a subgraph of the scene graph and only view that part.

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Re:Web Starter Kit by dragonwriter on Thursday June 19, 2014 @04:15PM (#7918072)
> HTML is based on XML

No, its not.

HTML is based on SGML (it was originally an SGML application profile, though as of HTML5 it is no longer.)

XML was invented after HMTL, was inspired by HTML, and is also an SGML application profile.

So, insofar as XML and HTML are related all, its closer to the reverse of the relationship you describe.

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Re:Web Starter Kit by malandrew on Thursday June 19, 2014 @04:21PM (#7918092)
Thanks for the history lesson.

My point about strings and children still stand though. SGML is a document markup language. It was never designed for complex scene graph work, so I don't get how the OP I responded to came to the conclusion that HTML derived from anything that was originally used for things like applications and GUIs.

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Re:Web Starter Kit by diminish on Thursday June 19, 2014 @04:35PM (#7918148)
What I meant, was initially people were pixel-painting fixed screens and 2D/3D graphic programming evolved as one branch, and GUI app frameworks evolved as another (MacApp anyone?). If you look at earlier Mac/Windows/X app frameworks and iOS/Android app frameworks, you'll see that the latter is a more naive and easy solution to the same problem without the burden of multiple docs, windows and massive multitasking. I'm talking about windows, views, user interface controls, dialogs, textboxes, styling and finally inputs (events). HTML/CSS/JS is a string based natural solution to the same problem.

Finally, current native programming does not get its power from any advanced technique or technology but only due to its privileged position in an underpowered computing device with a smaller screens and newer touch input methods and hardware. This way, mobile GUI API designers didn't have most of the problems of large screen OS framework API designers had. When I look at their APIs, they are too simple, nothing fundamentally new.

So as mobile devices get better in general computing, a post html world may come back, with stringified description of UI elements.

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Re:Web Starter Kit by pjmlp on Thursday June 19, 2014 @05:27PM (#7918405)
Developers that enjoyed access to Xerox PARC systems, RAD tooling, and environments like NeXTStep already had access to much better hypertext systems with layout support.
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Re:Web Starter Kit by malandrew on Thursday June 19, 2014 @05:44PM (#7918472)
Do you have any good links/articles/discussions on these systems? I've read a bit about the origins of NeXTStep, but the work at PARC is something I know little about and RAD tooling is something completely new to me.
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