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Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by buster on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @08:53AM (#7904072)
So, putting poo into unicode is just the same as hieroglyphs? Or hebrew or arabic or chinese characters? Still don't agree.
Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by sho_hn on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @09:39AM (#7904318)
How are emoji different from other logograms?
Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by rejschaap on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @10:12AM (#7904496)
There is a good case for adding ancient languages to Unicode. I can also see the case for adding smiley faces, which could be seen as a contemporary global language. But I fail to see the case for pictures of poop, pizza and cowbell. That just seems a bit random to me. Maybe everyone is drawing the line somewhere else, but I'm guessing most people don't want to go down the road of adding company logo's for Coca-Cola and McDonalds or pictures of the Americans presidents or the sigils from Game of Thrones. It's good that Unicode is extendable and all, but that doesn't mean we should be adding glyphs just for the sake of it.

Also, adding political glyphs is a sure way to ruin the universality of Unicode (I'm looking at you no-piracy).

All that said, I love Unicode, it has flaws but I think it's brilliant (no sarcasm).

Also, can't wait to actually use the man-in-business-suit-levitating-glyph (sarcasm).

I'd use the Unicode sarcasm marks, but your font probably doesn't support them yet...

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by scrollaway on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @07:49PM (#7907754)
> Also, adding political glyphs is a sure way to ruin the universality of Unicode (I'm looking at you no-piracy).

As someone else pointed out, it comes from Wingdings, for which there has been an effort to fully get into Unicode.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webdings#mediaviewer/File:Webd...

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by meepmorp on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @09:54AM (#7904392)
I don't think emoji are logograms. Logograms represent actual words in a language, as opposed to emoji which don't have a conventional mapping to words (unless you consider the unicode character names such mappings, which is odd since most users don't have any idea what the character names are).
Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by sho_hn on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @10:07AM (#7904462)
You're right, but at the same time the level of abstraction it offers over spoken language is one of the reasons for the historic success of logographic writing. For example, in Chinese history it allowed mutually unintelligible dialects to more easily exchange information in writing, and it isolated orthography from shifts in pronunciation to a greater degree than possible with phonographic scripts. I feel like emoji have some similar properties along these lines, but of course also their own set of problems (specific visualizations can become dated, for example).

A fair bunch of Chinese characters are also actually pictographic (they're an image of something) or ideographic (they represent an abstract idea, not a morpheme or word) in origin, if not current usage.

This stuff - synergies and conflicts between writing systems and various media - fascinates me. Chinese writing for example now suffers from the problem that if your medium doesn't allow free-form painting/graphical compositing (like our computers largely don't right now) you can't easily coin new logograms, since you need a central registry that's slow to distribute to leaf nodes (cf. Unicode). So what's happening now is that new words get coined by recombining existing characters based on their sound value, adding a phonographic layer on top. And of course inputting Chinese has also become dependent on auxiliary systems like pinyin-based IMEs.

Meanwhile, the Korean Hangul alphabet has the interesting property that some of the letters graphically derive from each other with consistent patterns of "take this, add a stroke and you get this", making it easier to design keyboards with reduced numbers of buttons to enter combos. There's the theory that this contributed to the success of texting/mobile in Korea, and is a contributing reason for the healthy mobile industry there.

I'm getting far from the original topic with this rambling, but it still reads on it in one sense: There's a lot of variety to writing systems, and it's worth thinking about emoji as a spot on the spectrum instead of in isolation.

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by meepmorp on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @12:40PM (#7905413)
> I'm getting far from the original topic with this rambling, but it still reads on it in one sense: There's a lot of variety to writing systems, and it's worth thinking about emoji as a spot on the spectrum instead of in isolation.

Except that emoji aren't a writing system. Writing systems encode language. Emoji encode emotions, perhaps, or suggest collections of ideas/emotions, but don't convey language per se because there's no conventionally defined correspondence between words in a language and a given emoji.

If I give you a string in English or Chinese or Arabic or Amharic, using the conventional writing systems for those languages, each string will be interoperable as a specific sequence of words in that language. A string of emoji doesn't work that way.

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by sho_hn on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @12:52PM (#7905486)
Are you suggesting we turn falling into a specific set of relationships between symbols an entry requirement for the Unicode database, though? How would that look like in practice? I agree you're highlighting a useful difference, but I'm not sure about implications.
Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by meepmorp on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @02:36PM (#7906110)
Nah, I think keeping unicode as "characters" is fine. It's perfectly reasonable to encode non-linguistic data as characters if they're using in such wise.

Edit: to circle back, you said:

  How are emoji different from other logograms?
and everything thereafter was pointless pedantry on my part. Sorry for wasting valuable minutes of your life.
Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by sho_hn on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @02:59PM (#7906275)
No waste at all, you raised a good point :). Emoji are technically ideograms, not logograms ... though some of the Han characters are ideographic in origin/conception too (and then you get into cool things like compound ideograms), they just didn't stay purely ideographic.
Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by buster on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @09:59AM (#7904426)
I don't even understand your question. How is a character of a normal language (and i consider chinese normal) different from the picture of crap? And why would we put up a huge library of tiny pictures? If i want to look at cat pics, i don't open up the font browser. And where is the HN-logo unicode point? Can i register my own somewhere?

Unicode should be used to represent language and not anti-piracy symbols or poo or snowmen. Just my opinion, though. Obviously a great many people like shit in their fonts.

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by sho_hn on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @10:17AM (#7904533)
So what about all the characters in Unicode that map to different phonemes or words in different languages? For example, Latin letters are sometimes used for different phonemes in different languages (and dialects, and applications like romanization), and Han logograms are sometimes used for different words/morphemes in different languages. How is that different from "picture of crap" mapping to different specific words/phrases in different languages? You can certainly point at a picture of a pile of crap and name it in many normal languages.

But wait - what's a "normal language" and what's a normal graphical representation of it? Is it down to the development process? A lot of writing systems were originally designed/agreed upon by small groups of people, too, for example.

My questions (and other comments in this subthread) aim to get you to think more abstractly about the problem space and define your beef more accurately, because I'm interested in this question (where should Unicode draw the line) as well. Let's brainstorm, basically.

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by buster on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @10:46AM (#7904703)
The distinction between normal language and graphical representation is the same as what is clipart and what is a official part of a language. Is poo a letter? No. Is A a letter? Yes.

Fonts are not a clipart gallery and not a place for some committee to dump little pictures. If you want to show me a snowmen over the internet, use an image! Certainly people can understand an image of a snowmen.

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by sho_hn on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @10:55AM (#7904763)
But 粪 is also a character and means poo as well. It might not look like poo to you, but there's also examples of pictograms in the same script: 田 means field and looks like one.

Of course these are "official part of a language". But why? Under whose authority? You could cite "actual usage", but many of the emoji in Unicode certainly have seen actual usage for 10+ years in East Asia, so they qualify. And many of the letters in Unicode were in fact designed by committee prior to mass adoption by an actual population (for example the Hangul alphabet), so a lot of scripts already in Unicode originally didn't meet that barrier.

* = Letters vs. characters: Elements of alphabets are referred to as letters. Alphabets are graphical representations of phonemes, but many other writing systems encode syllables (syllabaries, like the Japanese kana), morphemes or words (logographies) instead. Unicode contains examples of all of these, and thus not just letters. So we want to talk about characters instead.

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by buster on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @11:24AM (#7904931)
Oh, the irony: http://oi60.tinypic.com/21o111t.jpg

That's pretty much my point.

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by sho_hn on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @11:32AM (#7904981)
For the record, the example was a Chinese character, which qualifies as "normal" according to the rulebook you set up. It's in active use in Mandarin and Japanese, and I'd think recognizable to many others (e.g. Cantonese readers or Koreans and Vietnamese). And it'll certainly show just fine on the default installs of most systems on the market right now.

http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=7C...

You're just being petty or culturally arrogant at this point, TBH.

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by buster on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @03:28PM (#7906450)
The point is that it will never happen that all codepoints are available everywhere (every font, evers OS, every device), and i certainly don't want a gazillion of pictures loaded on my smartphones little memory, just because some people think it necessary to have a symbol for poop in fonts which is never used anyway. I even consider it a total waste in my laptops 16GB of memory, to be honest. It's not a waste when it serves the real purpose of a language. A chinese word for poop? Sure. A picture of actual poop? No. And where does it stop? Can i have some dog poop and cat poop codepoints please? I'm sure elephant poop looks very different to cat poop, i want a code point for that too.

I say it again: If you want pictures and cliparts, use .png. If you want to write actual text, use fonts. It's as simple as that.

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by scrollaway on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @07:39PM (#7907713)
If you think using pngs instead of fonts is going to save your oh-so-precious mobile device's memory, you got another thing coming.
Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by buster on Wednesday June 18, 2014 @04:06AM (#7908989)
Which only shows that you know nothing. A unicode font can come in at about 20MB, but let's add more tiny pictures and make it 100MB, so that i can see the snowman on your webpage (which would be probably 2-5 kB as png).

Why should my browser load thousands of pictures that are never used?!

Yes, it's ridiculous.

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by scrollaway on Wednesday June 18, 2014 @05:47PM (#7913076)
> A unicode font can come in at about 20MB, but let's add more tiny pictures and make it 100MB

You're pulling numbers out of your ass. You also clearly don't know how font fallbacks work, despite having been told how they work in this very thread. Several times.

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by buster on Thursday June 19, 2014 @01:51AM (#7914653)
No, Arial Unicode MS: 22,1 MB. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_font

And you clearly don't understand that a) this thread contains unicode that my browser still doesn't show, despite your magic fallback and b) the fonts stil contain garbage that has nothing to do with fonts.

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by acdha on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @02:28PM (#7906068)
So you're using Windows XP or something similarly mired in the 90s which doesn't have fonts installed with glyphs for a standard character. That's bad for you and a small number of other people but that hardly says it's not useful to the billion or so people who can read Chinese.

The nice part about having it Unicode is that if you copy and paste that character somewhere else, it'll still work. It never goes through what we used to have to deal where the same character value couldn't reliably be processed without knowing the intended encoding with certainty.

Re:Announcing Unicode 7.0 by buster on Tuesday June 17, 2014 @03:22PM (#7906413)
No, Chrome, Debian testing.