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Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by neilc on Thursday August 27, 2009 @02:51PM (#789765)
They ... offered to take a look at the problem if I gave them root on the box. “Over my dead body,” I thought

That seems a little silly to me. If they control the hardware, they basically have root already. They shouldn't need root to investigate the alleged problem, of course, but the level of trust you need to grant your VPS provider is essentially the same as giving them root.

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by aaronsw on Thursday August 27, 2009 @02:55PM (#789772)
Technically the police can break down my door too, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to trust them with a key. There are both social reasons (a key is an invitation) and technical (it's much more noticeable if they break down the door).
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by neilc on Thursday August 27, 2009 @03:10PM (#789809)
There's a social difference, yes. In this case, I'm not sure the technical difference is all that large: if they were at all competent, they could have easily snooped on your VM without your knowledge.
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by brk on Thursday August 27, 2009 @03:01PM (#789791)
Yes, but in this case they weren't breaking down your door (at least not yet anyway). They were asking for a key for entry in order to assist you.

You could have most likely also given them an account and appropriate sudoer rights.

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by aaronsw on Thursday August 27, 2009 @03:09PM (#789807)
Did you read the article? They edited my partition to add their key to my authorized_keys, logged in with it, and turned off my webserver. Whatever that is, it's not asking to assist me.
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by brk on Thursday August 27, 2009 @03:22PM (#789835)
I did read the article. Based on what you wrote, they offered to help investigate the issue in October, November, December if you would give them root access. For some reason you had an issue with this (it's actually extremely common on any shared box that you do not own).

After the server that you lease from them (I omit calling it "your" server on purpose) continued to have issues that impacted customers outside of yourself, they logged into the box and (based on your article again) seemed to resolve the root (pun intended) issue rather quickly. This seems to have occurred 2-3 months after the initial root access request.

The response of shutting off Apache was a bit extreme, but given the history, not terribly surprising either.

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by mbreese on Thursday August 27, 2009 @04:54PM (#790021)
If you rent an apartment, you don't call it "the apartment that I rent", you call it "my apartment". Also, the landlord owns the place, but that doesn't give the landlord carte blanche to enter the apartment anytime they feel like it. Sure, they "own" it, but that does not make it any less wrong for them to barge in and gain access. If they need access, they must provide sufficient notice and must do it for a specific reason. This is a very similar situation.

Particularly interesting to me is that they had the technical means to restrict the virtual machine via a configuration change, but instead chose to "trespass".

According to their terms and conditions, "Misuse of System Resources" is prohibited, but their only listed recourse is to "restrict, suspend, or terminate" the account. It is arguable that they had no right to access the data for his server, since they had other means to restrict or otherwise limit the VPS (which they already did). They should have just paused the VPS without accessing the data and send him an email. Adding your SSH key to a customer's server without notice or approval is a good way to tarnish a reputation among the hacker crowd (their customer base). I wouldn't allow them to have root access either.

Their argument would have been much stronger had they provided any sort of evidence of CPU load of his server. However, that probably would have shown how oversold the machine really was.

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by SwellJoe on Thursday August 27, 2009 @06:06PM (#790220)
If you rent an apartment, you don't call it "the apartment that I rent", you call it "my apartment". Also, the landlord owns the place, but that doesn't give the landlord carte blanche to enter the apartment anytime they feel like it.

This analogy doesn't really hold. "Your" apartment gets special rights under the law in the US and probably other places. Those rights are actually pretty extreme (it takes months after they stop paying to evict someone in most states, for example), and you don't have those same rights or expectations of privacy within an office building, or anything else you rent or lease that isn't your domicile.

According to their terms and conditions, "Misuse of System Resources" is prohibited, but their only listed recourse is to "restrict, suspend, or terminate" the account.

Sounds, to me, like they restricted his account to one that wasn't running Apache.

But, I agree that they should have simply turned him off. Customers that don't want administrative assistance on the system should never have it imposed on them, and I would also prefer my provider never login to my systems (and I don't provide them with access to my systems; though I know that because they have access to the hardware, they always have root available to them; I rely on good faith to prevent them from doing harm or abusing my privacy).

However, that probably would have shown how oversold the machine really was.

While this is very often true in the VPS hosting industry, Rimuhosting has an otherwise very good reputation. It's pretty easy to know when you're on an oversold host, and it's not something I've ever heard Rimuhosting accused of.

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by mbreese on Thursday August 27, 2009 @09:13PM (#790507)
The apartment analogy isn't perfect, but it is a good example to show that just because you own something, it doesn't give you the legal (or moral) right to muck around with it whenever you please. If you're renting computer space to a customer, there are rules that need to be followed. Some of them are legal, some contractual, and some are societal norms.

In this case they definitely violated the societal norms and possibly their contractual obligations as well. I'd say that you have a pretty good expectation of privacy on a virtual _private_ server.

I don't particularly know anything about Rimuhosting. I know most places are oversold to a certain degree. I suspect that there isn't any way to make money in the industry if you're not.

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by brk on Thursday August 27, 2009 @05:52PM (#790178)
* Also, the landlord owns the place, but that doesn't give the landlord carte blanche to enter the apartment anytime they feel like it.*

Of course not, but the landlord does generally have the right to enter the property if there is an emergency (water is dripping from your unit into the unit below you).

The hosting company here did not just drop in to see if he had any good scripts or pr0n to steal, they did so after resource issues.

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by apotheon on Thursday August 27, 2009 @06:22PM (#790251)
The apartment manager wouldn't have the ability to "pause" the apartment and wait for permission from the tenant to enter, though. The situation isn't strictly analogous.
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by mbreese on Thursday August 27, 2009 @09:56PM (#790559)
Exactly. In my mind this is the difference. If there is an emergency, the hypothetical apartment manager must physically enter the apartment.

However, in this case, the hosting company has another option available: pause the VM.

It is also easier to do technically than shutdown the VM, edit the filesystem, restart the VM, find the errant process, change the configuration, etc....

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by brk on Thursday August 27, 2009 @06:56PM (#790325)
How is pausing an entire slice and thereby killing ALL services better than just shutting down one daemon?
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by apotheon on Thursday August 27, 2009 @08:24PM (#790441)
It's better the same way that your apartment complex manager turning off the water to your apartment if there's a problem is better than going inside when you explicitly told him not to, checking all your faucets, and going through your underwear drawer, when you're not there.
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by jrockway on Friday August 28, 2009 @12:38AM (#790743)
Rimuhosting didn't go through this guy's underwear drawer, though. They went in and turned off the faucet that was damaging the apartment below.
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by apotheon on Friday August 28, 2009 @01:08AM (#790786)
> Rimuhosting didn't go through this guy's underwear drawer, though.

How do you know? They rooted the system against the explicitly stated wishes of the customer. What makes you think they wouldn't do other sketchy things while they're at it?

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by jrockway on Friday August 28, 2009 @03:08AM (#790917)
Well, I don't want my landlord coming into my house, but if he did anyway because the faucet was causing damage, I wouldn't assume he was also be interested in going through my underwear. Why would you assume that?
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by apotheon on Friday August 28, 2009 @09:00AM (#791255)
I wouldn't -- but then again, my landlord wouldn't have the option of "pausing" my home the way the hosting service has the option of pausing a customer's VPS, so it's more reasonable to expect the landlord to come in since that's the only way to mitigate such damage. If my landlord came in when I specifically asked him not to just to make sure my lights were turned off, though, that'd be another story; at that point, I'd start wondering whether turning off the lights was just a pretext for entry to my home.
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by mbreese on Thursday August 27, 2009 @10:00PM (#790567)
What if there were multiple interconnected daemons running? What if shutting down apache stopped the apache process from doing some other job that another process needed? With servers that you don't maintain, you just don't always know how the services interact.

So, it is always better to just pause the entire VM and let the owner deal with it. (Sure, you can offer to help fix it, that's good customer service, but just don't take it upon yourself to do it without approval).

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by jhancock on Thursday August 27, 2009 @05:34PM (#790124)
You could have used a tool I wrote http://shellshadow.com

Then you could have watched them investigate the problem.

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by velofille on Thursday August 27, 2009 @05:55PM (#790189)
That looks handy. you can use screen to do a similar thing which is much easier to install on the actual Linux server, and works with windows, Linux and mac One person starts a screen session, and the other person uses screen -x to share it.
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by jhancock on Thursday August 27, 2009 @06:19PM (#790247)
Screen is a good tool and does have a collaborative feature. But it requires the following:

1 - install screen and configure the collaboration on your server

2 - create a user on your server for the other person to login

3 - the other person logging in must be able to route directly to your server. The ip for the server must be public and SSHD listener must accept connect from anywhere.

4 - The other person can login and "collaborate" with your screen session whether you are logged-in/watching or not. The only security is to shut down your screen session or change your screen config file / stop the sharing.

5 - with screen you cannot interactively/quickly change modes between read-write, read-only, etc...

ShellShadow works as a client terminal relay. You setup a session between you and another user. You use the ShellShadow client (enhanced PuTTY) for your collaboration. There is nothing to setup and manage on your server. In fact your server is oblivious to the collaboration. One extra cool feature is this works with any terminal you can connect to: your Cisco router, your iPhone CLI, etc...

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by sho on Thursday August 27, 2009 @04:59PM (#790032)
You make it sound more difficult than it is. In other words, they mounted your partition, cat mykey.txt > authorized_keys, then ssh'd in and shut down your misbehaving app. They probably have a script for it since I bet it happens all the time.

You're dangerously close to whining, did you know.

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by pyre on Thursday August 27, 2009 @05:23PM (#790093)
How hard it was for them to do something isn't the issue.

From the blog post:

> In December they set a CPU cap on my VPS.

Then from their response email to shutting down Apache:

> We can set it so that you get a fixed amount of CPU (and then we don’t mind how much CPU want to use).

My first reaction is, "Huh?" They state that they don't care about your local CPU usage if they bother to put a cap on your usage of the actual CPU. Yet they didn't do that. Instead they broke into his box to shutdown a rogue process that was 'using too much cpu.' That doesn't make any sense.

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by _pius on Thursday August 27, 2009 @05:11PM (#790063)
You make it sound more difficult than it is.

Hmm. I'm sorry, but I don't see how this matters at all Sho. Do the ethics change based on whether you have a rootkit or you do everything by hand?

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by sho on Thursday August 27, 2009 @05:19PM (#790081)
Ethics? Ethics don't enter into it, this is pure business necessity. Fact is, a $20/month VPS account has no rights and if it causes trouble it will be shut down, simple as that.

Pay $250/month for an account at Rackspace (or whoever) and you will be treated very differently.

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by SwellJoe on Thursday August 27, 2009 @07:06PM (#790346)
Pay $250/month for an account at Rackspace (or whoever) and you will be treated very differently.

Actually, the reason you pay $250 (more, probably) at Rackspace, is because they will login to your box on a regular basis to "manage" things. Rackspace is focused on "managed hosting"; they help you administer your system, which is why people pay a big premium for it. Most hosting customers have no idea what they're doing, and they need a lot of hand-holding, and a "grownup" to make sure things stay sane on their systems.

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by sho on Thursday August 27, 2009 @07:24PM (#790371)
True. A rackspace account is more like $450 for a single server. They keep their prices secret for a reason.
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by jjs on Friday August 28, 2009 @07:36AM (#791168)
> cat mykey.txt > authorized_keys

I'd be legitimately upset if they did that instead of

    cat mykey.txt >> authorized_keys
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by sho on Friday August 28, 2009 @05:54PM (#792364)
Oops. Right you are. It was a typo!

Then again, he never said he was using SSH keys, so maybe ...

Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by apotheon on Thursday August 27, 2009 @05:32PM (#790118)
It would be easy as hell for me to shoot the hinges off a neighbor's door with a shotgun, wander inside, and turn off all the lights. That doesn't make it right.
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by DrJokepu on Thursday August 27, 2009 @03:34PM (#789855)
I think it isn't. Even if they have physical access to the machine, breaking into it is ethically questionnable and highly unprofessional. Unless they detect some sort of illegal activity or there is a real emergency, this is just simply unacceptable.
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by rufo on Thursday August 27, 2009 @03:57PM (#789904)
From their point of view, he'd repeatedly ignored three separate requests to clean up his CPU usage. After he refused to do anything about it, they took care of the problem. Would it have been better if they disabled his account entirely?
Re:Why I Won't Use Rimuhosting by pyre on Thursday August 27, 2009 @05:30PM (#790108)
But they had already capped his CPU usage. I see only 3 possibilities:

* Their cap failed to actually cap his CPU usage. In this case their incompetence is at fault.

* They failed to make the cap restrictive enough. In which case, they should have just further limited his max actual CPU usage.

* The box is actually well oversold on the number of clients that are on it, and there is no possible way to 'cap' someone's CPU usage to within a reasonable level while being able to allow that person to use 100% of their cap without issue. In this case, it's also their fault for over-selling the box and for misrepresenting what a cap means (and their policy regarding caps).