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Re:Marvel Comics and the “most intricate fictional narrative... by vidarh on Saturday June 14, 2014 @08:55PM (#7894072)
> For a short while, comics became insanely collectible, and Marvel figured out how to cash in.

This struck me. As a European, from one of the countries where comics stands strongest (Norway), I remember as a child, be shocked at hearing that in the US it was common, for the purposes of determining advertising reach, to count multiple issues per reader at one point.

Because in Norway, it was normal to calculate 3-4 readers per comic for of the most popular titles. Like (in the 80's; while still going, they've been displaced by homegrown titles "at the top" as far as I understand) Donald Duck & Co. and the Phantom, which both sold in the region of 150,000 to 200,000 per issue through much of the 80's (every week for Donald, and every two weeks for the Phantom) in a country of then ca. 4 million people. So for Donald it would not have been unreasonable for an issue to have been read by one in five people, including a lot of adults.

Comics, as a culture here, was always about fun and sharing, not really collecting (there are certainly collectors too, but it's never been as big as in the US).

Many Marvel and DC titles also sold more in translations in Scandinavia (sometimes each country in Scandinavia might outsell the US for certain titles) than they did in the US, though their popularity has diminished since the 80's.

Though it was not hard to see why "our" versions sold better when I saw my first US comic: Thin slivers full of advertising. We expected 60+ page issues, often expanded issues with up to 100 pages, and usually only 3 pages of advertising or so (inner cover and back page); maybe an advertising inlay.

My first exposure to Marvel (as had "always" been the case in Norway - we never had the proliferation of titles following different aspects of a character) was also far easier to digest (though it used to be more chaotic):

From 1983 onwards, a new publisher took over. Where the previous one had published a mish-mash of stories from the different Marvel titles, out of order, the new one followed a very simple format, coordinated throughout the Scandinavian market: Spiderman, Hulk, Project X each got one title that weaved together a single coherent-ish narrative for their title character from the different Marvel titles + extra stories about the other Marvel characers. In addition each title carried a single number scheme that placed them chronologically relative to each other. Focus was on ensuring that you could either follow one of the main titles or all of them in numbered order, and get a narrative that was understandable, if necessary "filled in" by a "fact page" or similar explaining the background of a "new" (to us) character that had to be thrown into the mix for the narrative to make sense.

Especially relevant with the new X-Men movie: Project X lasted 13 issues on its first run, and ended with Days of Future Past.

It got another 13 issue run again a couple of years later. Since then I stopped following superhero comics for many years so I don't know if they tried again, but superhero comics have never done particularly well in Scandinavia, which to me makes the US comics market even stranger.

Because our market, is dominated by, well, comedic comics, many of which through the years have been series that only got newspaper strip treatment in the US. The format is generally a main title, which gets the most pages aggregated from new and classic strips, coupled with a number of rotating sideshows. Examples includes Beetle Bailey (which has run continuously since the 70's), Hagar the Horrible (currently not being published), Calvin and Hobbes (which kept running for a few years after the new strips dried up), Opus (/Outland/Bloom Country), Ernie, The Far Side.

Many of these will start as a side series in one of the titles, and then "graduate" to a full series, and occasionally go back to being a side series in another title once their popularity diminishes (or when new material dries up - e.g. Calvin and Hobbes still show up).

In return, we've long had the bizarre situation where US comic artists that are virtually unknown in the US, tour Scandinavia and get large articles in national newspapers about their book signings, and we get special stories weaving the Scandinavia into stories. Some of them (Ernie for example) have even snuck in their Scandinavian editors as characters in their series at times.

These type of titles of course evades all of the narrative issues: Their universes are if not static, then at least rarely bound by their story lines.

But the most popular comics today are homegrown comedic series. At least three currently have regular (monthly) titles: The Collective (Kollektivet) - a story about a group of badly mismatched friends that started out as a housing collective, Pondus - a story that started out as a story about two soccer crazy bus drivers -, and Nemi, which is the most internationally known of them, thanks to being the least peculiarly Norwegian one of them...

All of these interestingly have in common that their universes evolve. Particularly Pondus and Kollektivet. Pondus has for example evolved from a simple series about two football-loving, beer drinking bus drivers getting into bizarre situations involving ugly women (the artist claims a US syndication deal stranded on his refusal to re-draw strips to make the women that one of the main character constantly hits on less ugly), horrible passengers etc. to a one of them buying a pub, and the perpetual bachelor (with the ugly women) finding himself a nice woman, getting married, having a child, and running a record-store with his dad. They escape the narrative "nightmare" that Marvel and DC deals with by not sharing their universe with anyone (the occasional friendly jabs between the different comic artists, where they've made fun of each others characters in various ways, excluded).

Pondus and Nemi sell more than most Marvel and DC series do in the US on a monthly basis in Norway alone, with their artists in full control and making enough to tell the publishers where to stuff it if they get too much interference. These magazines, and slots as side-series in other comedic comics supports a relatively large number of other comic artists, though most of them can not live full time of their series (one of the more popular series, for example, is drawn by a high-school teacher). Compared to the US, we have a market that does amazingly well in sales, despite far fewer titles, but does not sustain as many artists. On the other hand, the stories are far more diverse, and one of the reason we sustain fewer artists is that the series are not "cookie-cutter" series managed project-managed by the publishers.

To us, in many ways, when it comes to comics we are much closer to the Franco-Belgian comic culture than to the US. French and Belgian series like Tintin, Lucky Luke, Asterix, Spirou have always done exceptionally well in Scandinavia, regularly getting reprinted in huge numbers.

Re:Marvel Comics and the “most intricate fictional narrative... by maxerickson on Saturday June 14, 2014 @09:13PM (#7894090)
Beetle Bailey was published as a comic book in the U.S., from, I looked it up, 1962 until 1980. I started off pretty sure it had been in formats beyond the newspaper funnies because some paperbacks were around the house when I was a kid.

Here's an example:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2011/04/16/the-comi...

I guess other funnies may have had similar runs.

Re:Marvel Comics and the “most intricate fictional narrative... by vidarh on Saturday June 14, 2014 @10:08PM (#7894162)
As far as I can tell, those were larger books collecting the strips in chronological order and/or by theme rather than traditional comic books in magazine form. Those are common for most of the more popular US newspaper strips. There's even a common, distinct, size/format for them - I have a bunch of different ones on my bookshelf, though not Beetle Bailey.

They're very different from the format I have in mind, as they're published much more rarely (as the magazines often only need a handful of new pages per issue, and supplement with re-runs and side-series), in book form rather than magazine form, and rarely sold outside of specialist comic book stores or book stores. The chronological book editions are more aimed for collectors than for casual readers, with conversely tiny print runs in comparison.

We get the chronological collections for collectors in Norway too, but they're relegated to the same role as in the US (Asterix got the most fantastic collectors edition back in the 80's: You could get all of the ones published by then in hardcover on extra heavy paper, with gilded edges, bound in wild boar skin...).

Re:Marvel Comics and the “most intricate fictional narrative... by maxerickson on Saturday June 14, 2014 @10:11PM (#7894166)
Read the text at the link I provided. Especially the second paragraph. And notice that the panels there would be 3 weeks of Sundays for a pretty simple gag.

There's anyway lots of not so super U.S. comics, stuff like "Archie" or "Duck Tales" would be big ones. I sort of wonder how much U.S. stuff is being recycled into the books you are talking about. I don't mean I think it is for sure happening, I actually mean I wonder about how much it happens.

edit: http://www.atomicavenue.com/atomic/titledetail.aspx?TitleID=...

Re:Marvel Comics and the “most intricate fictional narrative... by vidarh on Saturday June 14, 2014 @11:05PM (#7894239)
Sorry, I missed that bit - I just briefly skimmed through the pages and noticed I recognized a couple of them. There is also a big series of collections of the newspaper strips that continued at least up until 1993, according to Wikipedia, and I assumed this was simply one of those. But yes, that's clearly different.

> There's anyway lots of not so super U.S. comics, stuff like "Archie" or "Duck Tales" would be big ones.

There's lots of them, but they are "special interest" that are published in tiny little runs for the most part, and most of them don't get much retail distribution (at least not any more). Archie being the closest to an extant "mainstream" non-superhero series (Archie is also reprinted in Scandinavia, but has never been a big seller), but even Archie is tiny: The main Archie title sold for <30k/month as of a few years ago.

Duck Tales is an interesting one to bring up, as it belongs to a separate tradition: The cartoon spin-off. There's lots of them, but most of them don't sell very well, and few of them get translated much. The Duck Tales stories do get published in Scandinavia, but as far as I understand they sell tiny amounts compared to the weekly Donald & Co magazine.

> I sort of wonder how much U.S. stuff is being recycled into the books you are talking about. I don't mean I think it is for sure happening, I actually mean I wonder about how much it happens.

Most of it does, for any series that gains traction. There are certainly US series that doesn't make it (but the US editions will be for sale in any comic shop), but for the ones that do, pretty much every single thing that gets printed in the US makes it to the European editions. E.g. Beetle Bailey has been published about monthly from the mid 70's in Norway, increasing to 3 times a month in the 80's, and twice a week for about the last 20 years - they've published every little scrap of Bettle Bailey material they've managed to dig up, and still the magazine is mostly re-runs and side series, and this is fairly typical.

Usually the death-knell for these magazines is that they simply "run dry". Calvin and Hobbes for example, kept going for a few years after Watterson stopped drawing, but unlike Beetle Bailey, his ten year run was simply too short to give them the same kind of flexibility in ongoing extensive re-runs, as the target audience would know and remember almost everything they'd print.

On top of publishing whatever they can get from the US editions the European publishers often commission extra material to help fill the generally higher page count editions, or special additional series. E.g. there's a long standing "Donald Pocket" series where the majority of books are written specifically for various European regional markets by European artists. And the Scandinavian Donald magazines includes a lot of specially commissioned stories from artists like Don Rosa (US) that are often not published in the US because there's no outlet for them (Don Rosa have had a few stories published in US comic books, but the US Disney comics sales keeps imploding every few years leading to repeated mass cancellations)

To get back to Beetle Bailey, there's another interesting example: The Scandinavian magazines regularly publishes draft strips that Walker or his assistants found too rude to expect to be accepted by his US publisher due to language (sexual innuendo, bodily functions etc.) or nudity.

Re:Marvel Comics and the “most intricate fictional narrative... by maxerickson on Saturday June 14, 2014 @11:11PM (#7894252)
I screwed up with Duck Tales, I was thinking of the stuff that the cartoon developed from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Scrooge#U.S._publication_...

Re:Marvel Comics and the “most intricate fictional narrative... by pyre on Sunday June 15, 2014 @08:59AM (#7895132)
Yea, the Duck Tales cartoon took a lot from the pre-existing comics, rather than the other way around.
Re:Marvel Comics and the “most intricate fictional narrative... by mathattack on Sunday June 15, 2014 @12:26AM (#7894370)
The collectability bubble also happened in baseball cards at the same time. Like all bubbles, it fed on itself for a while before ultimately dying and taking down many of the later adopters. Afterwards comics moved to specialty stores.
Re:Marvel Comics and the “most intricate fictional narrative... by runn1ng on Sunday June 15, 2014 @01:44AM (#7894522)
There is a difference between the European and American comics.

US comics are more intricate and harder to follow, but it's potentionally more rewarding. This, in turn, creates more passionate and more religiously following fans.

On one hand, you can have a lot of customers; on the other hand, you can have smaller, but more loyal customers.

US comics have chosen the second path, in approximately 1980s. And I, as a European fan of US "Big 2" comics, don't really mind.

Re:Marvel Comics and the “most intricate fictional narrative... by gillianseed on Sunday June 15, 2014 @09:27AM (#7895184)
>US comics are more intricate and harder to follow, but it's potentionally more rewarding.

I'm not sure that this generalisation holds, I grew up with comics like Laureline and Valerian by Christin/Mezerieres, the work by Jean Giroud aka Moebius, and I'm sure there are many of other european made comics I read back in my youth which are quite advanced story-wise, there's more to european comics than Tintin and The Smurfs :)

On contrast I've often found the formulaic superhero style stories dominating US comics to be rather 'simple', but of course that's a generalisation as well.

Re:Marvel Comics and the “most intricate fictional narrative... by Guillaume86 on Sunday June 15, 2014 @09:28AM (#7895186)
If you oversimplify it's a bit like movie vs tv series. European comics have a full story with closure and not too much references to other episodes story wise. US comics are like tv series, never really ends and the stories are very intricate.