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Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by frisco on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @01:11PM (#7873859)
I hope that drones end up going through the same channels as traditional aviation - you get a pilot certificate with a drone rating (Drone Quadengine Land?). That would be very cool because it would get the drone operators in the same system as everyone else, ensure they know the FARs and are sufficiently skilled to be safe, and create a pathway that everyone could feel good about being legitimate. Aviation is a really complex thing, and while I wouldn't expect the complexity of a small drone license to be anywhere near even a Recreational Pilot certificate, there's at least a weekend of stuff to know here and it should result in a license.

The bar for CFIs would be different, too, and I imagine you'd end up seeing tons of little Part 141-style drone schools pop up for $100 - $300 for a Saturday or so. It would be like adding a motorcycle rating to a driver's license. I don't think it would meaningfully hinder progress.

I feel like this is important even if they're exclusively limited to class G airspace near the ground (and the reality is that in a lot of the congested areas where drones are being flown, it isn't traditional class G airspace).

Add it onto the new light sport aircraft pathways and you make it easy for people get into drones safely while also introducing them to the wider world of aviation.

Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by tlrobinson on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @01:44PM (#7874091)
I think there need to be different classes of drones. A kid who wants to film his friends at a skate park with a 1 pound AR.Drone shouldn't have to get a drone pilots license, while someone flying FPV 5 miles out probably should.
Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by mbreese on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @01:57PM (#7874185)
Right now you don't need a license for a 1 pound quad-copter that is flown within line of sight (for non-commercial uses).

The problem is that even for line-of-sight users, the FAA won't let you use them for commercial purposes. So, your hypothetical kid would be okay filming their friends, so long as they didn't make any money from it.

There are two issues with drones that the FAA needs to figure out: 1) commercial use and 2) autonomous (out of sight) flight. The latter is much trickier than the former. I'm all for autonomous drones having to get certified (including FPV, since those would need some kind of fail-safe). But even here, there might need to be a "hobbyist" class and a commercial class with different requirements.

Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by frisco on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @02:06PM (#7874264)
The reason the FAA is so nervous about commercial operations in general is because in aviation there's nothing more dangerous than saying, "we'll be there by 2:30." It's why the rules for Part 135 (charter) operators are much stricter than for Part 91 (personal) operators, and go through the roof for Part 121 (scheduled airline) operators. The commercial aspect adds a potentially major consideration other than safety and so the FAA has a whole separate way of thinking about it. The spirit of these concerns is probably as true for drones as it is for manned aircraft, though the concrete instantiations of it will obviously be different.
Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by mbreese on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @02:32PM (#7874432)
You seem to be coming at this from a traditional aviation viewpoint (which is valid). I'm coming at it from a modeling viewpoint. And I think that's where a large part of the disconnect comes into play. From the traditional point of view, you'd like to bring these drones into the normal aviation regulatory framework. From the model point of view, large regulations are overkill and are severely limiting the development of this industry.

I think that there are a couple of obvious rules that could be applied to speed things along: 1) limit location and altitude of flying, 2) require hands-on control (or take over), 3) require line of sight, 4) enforce some reasonable weight restrictions (for cameras). If you could meet those four things, then I don't see why you'd need to have a commercial restriction. You might have other issues to deal with for insurance, but I don't see why the FAA should care about commercial/non-commercial with such small craft.

Now, when you get into autonomous flight and real payloads, then that's a whole other ballgame, where I think the FAA will have some real work to do. In particular though, I'd hate to see them limit the hobbyist segment too much. I think it would be a lot of fun to build a small, autonomous drone that could fly using GPS waypoints with a camera. I just don't want to have to go through 2 years of certification to be able to fly it!

Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by frisco on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @04:08PM (#7874998)
> limit location and altitude of flying

Sure - this might be a good example here because any rules the FAA will come out with in this regard will probably require you to be able to read a sectional chart unless you're really in the middle of nowhere. The DJI drones are all easily capable of altitudes that could interfere with VFR traffic and in places like the Bay Area the ceilings people are flying under are often quite low to avoid, for example, the SFO airspace. Drones are way more maneuverable than airplanes, so the realistic burden will be on the drone operators to avoid rather than the other way around.

Definitely shouldn't be a two-years-of-flight-school thing, but there probably is a written test at the DMV somewhere in here.

Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by lsh123 on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @02:42PM (#7874509)
You are missing important part: find a way to punish violators of these (and other) rules. This is critical for safety.
Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by toomuchtodo on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @03:06PM (#7874645)
Typically, if you violate FARs, you'll lose a huge pilot's license investment (private, ifr, commercial can total in the tens of thousands of dollars).

It doesn't hurt to lose a $300-$1000 quadrotor pilot license.

Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by lsh123 on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @03:36PM (#7874817)
Correct. The question is - how to identify the drone pilot? With planes you have N-number, transponders, FBOs, etc.
Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by toomuchtodo on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @03:40PM (#7874839)
Require user registration by serial number on the drone possible? Or perhaps require commercial drones use ADS-B?
Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by LyndsySimon on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @07:22PM (#7875864)
Registering individual airframes doesn't make much sense - it's not unusual for a single quadcopter to go through many design iterations over the course of a few months.

It might start out as a 10" wide quadcopter, until the first major crash. Instead of ordering a new arm, it can be reconfigured as a tricopter with the addition of a servo. After a while, the tricopter might become a V-Tail if the user likes the flight characteristics.

Then FPV kit might get added, or a GPS reciever. Now it's flying semi-autonomously and the user wants better quality video, so it's transplanted onto a 18" frame, fitted with a gimbal and nicer camera.

At what point does the multicopter need to change registration numbers?

A simple "You must have your name and contact info on it" rule would be more than sufficient - and in fact is already the case for 90% of the aircraft out there. I even have my contact info taped to the body of my little 4" Hubsan quadcopter; I'll probably never need it, but why throw away expensive hardware if you don't have to?

Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by lsh123 on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @06:20PM (#7875647)
It's not clear how one can get the serial number from the drone. ADS-B might be an option not only for tracking violators but also to solve "see-and-avoid" problem too.
Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by pavel_lishin on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @02:22PM (#7874388)
> * in aviation there's nothing more dangerous than saying, "we'll be there by 2:30."*

Can you elaborate on this? I don't understand.

Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by lsh123 on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @02:30PM (#7874421)
It changes risk decisions: instead of worrying only about safety the pilots/operators start to also worry about making the schedule. In the history of aviation, it led to numerous accidents and incidents of pilots flying into bad weather, pilots flying un-airworthy aircrafts, etc. only because they've had schedule to meet.
Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by toomuchtodo on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @03:08PM (#7874652)
Safety loses out when you're on a deadline.

I flew private with someone when I was a student pilot; we were on a deadline, so instead of waiting for the weather to let up, we were scud running about 300 miles back to our home airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scud_running). This is inadvisable; you're throwing minimum ceilings out the window, and hoping you don't run into obstacles on the ground (wind towers, cell towers, antenna guy wires).

It's not just dangerous, but illegal if you get caught. (Note: I was not PIC, and did not make the call). Do not do this.

EDIT: /u/lsh123 said it better.

Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by jessaustin on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @02:16PM (#7874339)
Obviously we don't want drones traversing glide paths for major airports, but besides obvious stuff like that how are safety concerns for drones in any way comparable to those for aircraft that carry humans?
Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by lsh123 on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @02:41PM (#7874492)
The most basic concern is that dron operators need to know these "dangerous" areas. The approach paths is only one of many other potentially dangerous places in the skies. There are also low-level military operation areas, low-level VFR corridors, etc. More importantly, the skies are not empty and the VFR flights are based on see-and-avoid concept. With drones, it is hard to see the drones from planes and drones can't see planes either.

Not to mention the enforcement part. All planes today have a call sign and FAA/NTSB can easily go after pilots when rules are broken. This is an important part of the overall safety architecture. FAA would need to come up with a way to enforce rules on drones pilots and operators to ensure that unsafe behavior is punished.

Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by nightski on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @02:08PM (#7874282)
There already is to an extent. You can fly drones as long as they are within visible range iirc even today.
Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by ggreer on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @05:11PM (#7875349)
I can see where you're coming from, but I think your proposed system would seriously stunt drones. You assume drones have a pilot, but most of the benefits of drones will be from automated ones. Requiring a human pilot drastically increases drone cost, killing many applications in the cradle. Most delivery services (such as Amazon's proposed system) would be right-out. So would having a drone follow someone on a bike ride or run, carrying supplies or providing light at night. And forget about personal security drones recording encounters, pepper-spraying assailants, and following them until police can catch them.

Automated drones would completely change how we live our lives. In contrast, the general aviation community is small and hasn't advanced significantly since the 1950's. The popular engines and airframes are almost the same as they were a half-century ago. Heck, most private planes still run on leaded gasoline. Restricting drones to preserve private planes makes about as much sense as restricting automobiles to preserve horseback riding.

Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by frisco on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @06:49PM (#7875743)
I could see autonomous UAVs being handled separately; you're right that I'm assuming that "drones" today have pilots ultimately responsible for them, which I think is in reality true.

I wouldn't mean for a certification pathway for UAV operators to exclude autonomous operation, but it's certainly a harder problem. It will probably be similar to current aircraft certification. Small companies have long histories of building and certifying airframes, so I don't buy your argument that it would "seriously stunt" drones. A company that can raise money can go through airframe and type certification. The costs come down in proportion to airframe fabrication and fuel costs.

It's one thing to let cities set their own rules for local flights below 400 ft. What happens when a software bug sends you up to 1,000 ft? Accidentally busts Class B airspace? These are similar issues as being seen with autonomous cars and can't be easily waved away.

Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by scrumper on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @05:22PM (#7875396)
Every example you've given is, at least in my view, a reason to support the parent's proposal. You're thinking somewhat further in the future than the state of the art, too. Why not follow a regulatory path broadly similar to horses->cars->self driving cars? Let the technology catch up, and legislation can follow as appropriate. The parent makes sense today, and will open up a legal framework for piloted drones which doesn't currently exist (crop dusting, aerial photography, news broadcasting, crowd control, traffic monitoring).
Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by ggreer on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @06:18PM (#7875639)
Cars are regulated much less than planes, yet self-driving cars are an excellent example of technology that has been delayed due to risk-averse, slow-to-change legislation.

The problem is that while legislators and rule-makers often react quickly when restricting things, they are very loath to repeal restrictions. A work-around is to permit most things by default, then restrict in reaction to specific issues.

Two excellent examples of squandered potential are general aviation and amateur radio. Both have been encumbered by nationwide rules that quickly became outdated. (Seriously, Morse code?) I'm very worried the FAA will do the same to drones. After all, that's what they're incentivized to do. They only get fired when someone is killed by a new technology. They aren't commended when millions benefit from it.

On the other hand, the FAA could drastically accelerate drone development with one simple rule: Allow cities and states to make their own laws regarding anything less than 10kg flying under 400ft. This includes commercial use.[1]

That's it. If local governments want to experiment, let them.

1. Of course there would be the normal restrictions around airports, military bases, etc. Also, temporary restrictions for VIPs such as the president make sense.

Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by bane on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @04:12PM (#7875022)
I haven't looked at the FAA regs yet, but what's the distinction between a drone and a model plane? A camera?

Model planes don't need all this licensing stuff, you can just build one and go out in a field and have some fun. There's even some really big, impressive, jet powered model planes. Where is the boundary drawn exactly?

Put another way, would drone pilot school be basically learning to fly a model plane/helicopter?

Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by frisco on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @04:23PM (#7875080)
My understanding is that RC planes have been mostly ignored in the regulations because the community is so small. If quadrotors enable a massive explosion in hobbyist R/C flight it changes the story. The few drones flying right now aren't the issue - it's what happens now that they're on the verge of becoming so cheap and accessible. I know a lot of people with reasonably high power Phantoms that never would have considered R/C planes before.
Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by bane on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @04:43PM (#7875207)
> I know a lot of people with reasonably high power Phantoms that never would have considered R/C planes before.

Do you think it's because it's a more stable/easier to fly platform?

My uncle used to be an avid R/C plane enthusiast (even has a small R/C only airfield named after him). Built and flew decent sized aircraft for decades, even put video on quite a few. But damn if they aren't hard to fly.

Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by jessriedel on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @03:11PM (#7874673)
I suggest defining these acronyms. For everyone else: CFI = Certified Flight Instructor. FAR = Federal Aviation Regulation.
Re:FAA OKs first commercial drone flights over land by joshdance on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @04:24PM (#7875086)
I hope that it doesn't follow the same channels. I would prefer different classes of drones with lots of room for experimentation.