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Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by austinz on Sunday June 08, 2014 @10:16PM (#7866688)
Noncompete clauses are bullshit.

We already have an extensive infrastructure in place to protect the intellectual property and trade secrets of companies, including NDAs and those clauses assigning ownership of anything you produce to your employer. But the idea that companies can overstep this bound and place restrictions on how you can use your brain and your general knowledge to produce new, creative work that has only a secondary or tertiary relation to their IP is utterly vile.

If the technology existed to erase memories from brains, would these employers insist in their employment clauses that employees who resign must have any professional knowledge acquired on the job erased from existence? This is almost the same thing. If you are an engineer in a niche field, in particular, being barred from that field for a year or more is tantamount to rendering your professional knowledge obsolete.

Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by Lagged2Death on Monday June 09, 2014 @01:13AM (#7867150)
If the technology existed to erase memories from brains, would these employers insist in their employment clauses that employees who resign must have any professional knowledge acquired on the job erased from existence?

Oh God yes. Yes they would indeed.

Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by tzs on Monday June 09, 2014 @02:21PM (#7869675)
> If you are an engineer in a niche field, in particular, being barred from that field for a year or more is tantamount to rendering your professional knowledge obsolete.

What if it was the employer that taught you the niche field? They hired you, and then sent you through six months of training to learn the field. During this time, you are producing very little of value, but you are being paid.

Then, when you finish the training and are ready to be productive with your new niche knowledge, you get poached by their competitor--a competitor who can pay higher wages because it isn't spending tens of thousands of dollars on training for new employees.

It seems to me that there should be some way for the employer to protect against the above scenario. What would be acceptable instead of a noncompete?

Some ideas:

1. A noncompete that runs from the START of employment instead of from the END of employment. If training takes six months, the noncompete would say you cannot work for a competitor for 18 months after start of employment.

2. Charge for training, with payment due in monthly installments starting at the end of training. The company waives payment for each month that the employee continues working for them. The employee can leave for a competitor at any time, but will then be responsible for making the remaining payments for his training.

Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by _delirium on Monday June 09, 2014 @04:24PM (#7870285)
I'd be okay with provisions restricting (or penalizing) quitting early in those kinds of situations if they are approximately symmetric. For example a 2-year minimum employment period in which there are penalties for either side abrogating the contract early (the employee leaving before two years, or the company laying the employee off before two years, maybe with exceptions for serious misconduct on either side).
Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by tptacek on Monday June 09, 2014 @04:33PM (#7870328)
It's not clear to me why the employer investing in training has somehow shouldered some additional obligation to the employee.
Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by _delirium on Monday June 09, 2014 @04:36PM (#7870342)
It's the employer modifying the at-will employment arrangement and attempting to restrict the employee's freedom to choose jobs at will, which should result in a symmetric obligation. The default situation in most U.S. states is at-will employment: either side may terminate the employment relationship at any time, for any or no reason, with any notice they choose to give or none.

If a more durable arrangement is desired, so the employee cannot leave tomorrow with no notice (thereby giving up the normal freedom to work only willingly for employers, and leave when it is no longer willing), then IMO it should be set out in advance and honored by both sides, e.g. by using a fixed-term or minimum-term contract, with penalties for early termination by either side. That way both sides can plan on the stability of the relationship (barring serious misconduct).

For example in my current job, either my employer or myself can terminate the employment with four months notice, after the first six months. This gives us both some guarantee that we will be able to plan for major changes— they will have time to find a replacement if I give notice, and I'll have time to find another job if they give notice.

Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by tptacek on Monday June 09, 2014 @05:06PM (#7870497)
The employer is not "modifying the at-will arrangement". The employer is doing the same thing employers do with signing bonuses: "here is a benefit you can have, but if you leave before 12 months is up, you have to give it back".

Obviously, training benefits can be abused. "Here is a 'benefit' that is not really a 'benefit' but instead a job requirement for which we have assigned a nearly arbitrary value; if you leave within 12 months, you must pay us this random number back." But as long as "training" has some value assigned by the market with a reference price not controlled by the employer, what's the problem?

Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by tehwebguy on Monday June 09, 2014 @05:24PM (#7870610)
Of course, it is all about consideration. I just can't think of an example where training would be enough consideration for a non-compete.

Employers always have to pay for experience. You either pay more for an experienced employee or pay for training.

With an experienced employee you can include actual benefits, like you mentioned, or you can pay to train someone who will take a lower salary.

Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by tptacek on Monday June 09, 2014 @06:20PM (#7870835)
I'm not suggesting that training should be adequate consideration for a noncompete.
Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by _delirium on Monday June 09, 2014 @05:55PM (#7870754)
> what's the problem?

It's uncomfortably close to indentured servitude to me to say: you can't work for anyone else until you pay off this up-front investment we made in you (working only for us until you do).

Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by tptacek on Monday June 09, 2014 @06:20PM (#7870833)
Do you feel the same way about signing bonuses? All of them work that way, I think.
Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by tehwebguy on Monday June 09, 2014 @05:17PM (#7870581)
Are you W2 employed in the US with an employment contract that says you can't quit without 4 months notice?

What does the contract specify as a remedy for the company if you quit early?

Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by _delirium on Tuesday June 10, 2014 @09:55AM (#7872453)
Regularly employed, but not in the US. I believe the remedy is monetary on both sides; they can't get a court order to literally drag you back into the building and make you work, and you can't get a court order to force them to let you into it, either. I don't know of anyone who's violated such a period and haven't looked in detail into what would happen, so the details are sketchy to me. But I believe there would be some kind of court or arbitration hearing, where the company alleges damages from the disruption due to breach of the employment contract, and the person may be ordered to pay any damages that stem from the too-short notice.
Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by gedrap on Sunday June 08, 2014 @10:36PM (#7866753)
That's a good point. The problem is applying noncompete clause to every employee of the company, regardless of their position.

I guess enforcing noncompete is just easier than NDA because it might be very hard, if not impossible, to prove disclosure. I understand noncompetes for executives, etc. People who could seriously harm their employer with their knowledge (client list, etc) if transferred to a competitor.

But yes, applying noncompete to every employee regardless of the position is a bit silly.

Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by pmoriarty on Sunday June 08, 2014 @11:09PM (#7866828)
"People who could seriously harm their employer with their knowledge (client list, etc) if transferred to a competitor."

Why should the government protect companies from their competitors?

Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by qnaal on Monday June 09, 2014 @01:45AM (#7867219)
"intellectual property logic"
Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by eli_gottlieb on Monday June 09, 2014 @05:47AM (#7867652)
>If the technology existed to erase memories from brains, would these employers insist in their employment clauses that employees who resign must have any professional knowledge acquired on the job erased from existence?

Don't be silly: of course they would. Do you think they don't think they own you?

Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by maaku on Sunday June 08, 2014 @10:27PM (#7866727)
there is a movie about that
Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by yzzxy on Sunday June 08, 2014 @10:34PM (#7866748)
Perhaps you'd like to share?
Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by ahomescu1 on Sunday June 08, 2014 @10:42PM (#7866768)
I think he/she means Paycheck: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0338337/
Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by nitrogen on Monday June 09, 2014 @01:14AM (#7867155)
Assuming reliable and safe memory erasure were invented, I wouldn't mind such an arrangement if I could keep my skills and reputation, while forgetting only who I worked for and what products I worked on.
Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by ahomescu1 on Monday June 09, 2014 @01:35AM (#7867199)
It depends on how much you can separate skills from knowledge. If you learn new things during your job and are forced to forget them, that can be a problem. For example, you learn a new programming language, then they wipe it from your memory.
Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by yzzxy on Sunday June 08, 2014 @10:49PM (#7866784)
Thanks. I hardly feel this film is in the common vernacular. If he had said book, maybe the Dick authorship would have made it more clear.
Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by maaku on Monday June 09, 2014 @11:42AM (#7868942)
I actually didn't know it was a Philip K. Dick story, although that totally makes sense.
Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by tbagman on Sunday June 08, 2014 @10:43PM (#7866772)
Paycheck, starring Ben Affleck:

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paycheck_(film)
Re:Noncompete Clauses Increasingly Pop Up in Array of Jobs by maaku on Monday June 09, 2014 @03:33PM (#7870044)
I was on a phone and not equipped to research what its name was, but yes it was Paycheck with Ben Affleck I was thinking of.