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Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by jph on Wednesday June 04, 2014 @10:01PM (#7849777)
Terrible advice to pull a media stunt.

First, you have no idea what the manufacturer needs to do to fix the problem, alert customers, do recalls and recertifications, and the like.

Second, you put yourself directly in the line of fire unnecessarily and for all the wrong reasons. You could find yourself on the end of all kinds of legal trouble, and on top of that you would be morally culpable for any harm.

Do it the right way: get a lawyer. The lawyer will know how to contact the vendors, the regulatory agencies, media if necessary, and customers if necessary.

Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by mindslight on Wednesday June 04, 2014 @10:46PM (#7849922)
> get a lawyer

Because this is the world we should want to live in? Where you must pay a member of the protection racket to mediate publishing knowledge of someone else's extreme wrongdoing?

That is terrible advice. Its road ends with TORified disclosures of weaponized automated exploits, because as pure info sec has shown, that's the only way the message ever gets across when you give people the insulation to not listen.

Publicly demonstrating these exploits to an amicable media is the best idea I've heard yet, as they have straightforward real-world effects that can be easily illustrated. If certain manufacturers choose to send goons after you rather than fix their buggy products, then the community-accepted custom for them can change to psuedonymous press releases accompanied by a video with a (mock) live human subject.

Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by ijk on Wednesday June 04, 2014 @11:47PM (#7850117)
> Because this is the world we should want to live in? Where you must pay a member of the protection racket to mediate publishing knowledge of someone else's extreme wrongdoing?

Might be useful to distinguish between the ideal and the actual: in an ideal world, you of course shouldn't need a lawyer and the manufacturers should smilingly thank anyone who discovers an exploit and tells them. In this less-than-perfect world I'd suggest getting a lawyer and then going to the media.

Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by sliverstorm on Thursday June 05, 2014 @12:27AM (#7850228)
Maybe if we just wish harder...
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by tripzilch on Thursday June 05, 2014 @06:43PM (#7855100)
Interesting how digital rights, when they apply to privacy and outrage about eavesdropping it's "just the USA", but when they refer to liability in an out-of-control justice system it's as if does work the same way in the entire world.
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by brianpgordon on Thursday June 05, 2014 @12:39AM (#7850255)
People say that because a lawyer can really, really help you in your cause. The law is byzantine and someone who can navigate it and act as an advisor could make a big difference.
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by Qualman on Thursday June 05, 2014 @10:11AM (#7852030)
Claiming a medical company's life-saving device will kill your family on national news will almost without a doubt land you on the receiving end of a libel lawsuit, warranted or not. Not having to use lawyers would be nice, but it's not happening in this paradigm. This is a naïve response.
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by aroch on Thursday June 05, 2014 @01:31PM (#7853048)
That's what anti-SLAPP laws are for.
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by thenmar on Thursday June 05, 2014 @12:11AM (#7850179)
Can you elaborate on how lawyers are "member[s] of the protection racket"?
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by mindslight on Thursday June 05, 2014 @12:36AM (#7850246)
The oft-recommended prudence of having a lawyer's advice for most any action in the public realm indicates a de facto protection racket.

Specifically, the above comment references having a lawyer handle (and moderate) what should be open technical communication with the manufacturer and regulatory agencies, the implication being that simply disclosing facts put you at grave risk from an endlessly complex legal system.

Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by adamtj on Thursday June 05, 2014 @10:09AM (#7852018)
This situation isn't the same as a protection racket. In a protection racket, it's the racketeers themselves that hurt you when you don't pay.

In this case, lawyers are more like mercenaries. Yes, you can pay them for protection, as you can a racketeer. The differences are that they don't come to you demanding money, and if you don't pay they won't turn around and hurt you, nor will anybody they're directly working with.

Some other lawyers may cause you grief; however, they will be working on behalf of some other party, not the lawyers you didn't hire.

You could argue that the legal system as a whole is a racket, but that's a different sense of the word.

Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by thomasz on Thursday June 05, 2014 @01:43AM (#7850409)
1) You really shouldn't have an open conversation about knowledge that can easily kill people.

2) I'm pretty sure that communication isn't the problem, the problem is that he want's to pressure them into fixing their mess, and that is exactly the point where things get messy from a legal perspective. I can hardly imagine a legal system in which a situation like this would be unproblematic.

Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by ds9 on Thursday June 05, 2014 @08:57AM (#7851679)
"an open conversation about knowledge that can easily kill people"

This phrase and the article contain the same fallacy ( ("disclosing 0days when they can kill people"). I may be accused of semantic quibbling here, but I think it is important to state the issues clearly and accurately.

Information cannot kill anyone, nor exert any effects at all, ever. It is not causal. Actions using the information may be enabled by knowledge of the information, but they are human choices and not automatic.

This is not merely a matter of careless expression that does not affect the argument. In fact the fallacy is not only, or not exactly supposing that knowledge is causal, but rather in eliding the whole articulation of what happens between the revealing or acquisition of knowledge and the action that may or may not use it in some way.

The situation has a common element with the gun control issue: if someone has a gun, violence is easier, and this may be considered bad, but it does not excuse conflating the shooter's action with someone else's conduct of merely allowing that person to have a gun. It does not shift any responsibility from a competent adult actor to someone who merely allows a gun to be available.

Note also that the gun-possessor, or the person newly armed with knowledge, need not act on it at all, and those who confuse things by missing these distinctions manage to avoid the fallacy in those cases.

Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by baddox on Thursday June 05, 2014 @04:04AM (#7850794)
> 1) You really shouldn't have an open conversation about knowledge that can easily kill people.

You mean like guns, toxins, and martial arts?

Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by thomasz on Thursday June 05, 2014 @06:21AM (#7851151)
sigh. This will get boring quite fast because a sizable portion of people participating in threads like that find the idea revolting that actions can have, you know, consequences, but what the heck...

If you would find a recipe for a toxin that is deadly, untraceable and can be mixed together from common household items by a talented 14 year old, it's probably a bad fucking idea to post that to 4chan. The same goes for hypothetical weapon blue prints or martial arts techniques that would allow to kill with a microscopic risk.

Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by zheshishei on Thursday June 05, 2014 @10:53AM (#7852242)
>If you would find a recipe for a toxin that is deadly, untraceable and can be mixed together from common household items by a talented 14 year old, it's probably a bad fucking idea to post that to 4chan.

Does this count as a straw man argument? Wouldn't the actual scenario would be more like disseminating the information that a deadly toxin that is deadly, untraceable, and can be mixed together from common ingredients exists, not the recipe itself.

Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by Anderkent on Friday June 06, 2014 @07:30AM (#7857241)
Well, that depends on whether he dropped the actual exploit, or just talked about it. Which was the original question.
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by baddox on Thursday June 05, 2014 @01:37PM (#7853084)
This is an extensively amended and much weaker claim than your first.
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by ebrenes on Thursday June 05, 2014 @04:48AM (#7850922)
Don't forget vehicles, diseases, sudden deceleration, falls, drops and darwin award winning behaviour.

It's important that people be aware of the risks they face, and seeking to silence that conversation is not helpful. If anything, it will create an environment where any perpetators might go unpunished because it's just implausible they did what they did.

Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by marcosvpj on Thursday June 05, 2014 @08:15AM (#7851477)
>1) You really shouldn't have an open conversation about >knowledge that can easily kill people. I can easily kill someone with a rock. Just hit in the head, repeatedly. Why that should be a secret?
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by madaxe_again on Thursday June 05, 2014 @05:54AM (#7851089)
Like estate agents and recruiters, they create an inefficiency and exploit it.
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by hangonhn on Thursday June 05, 2014 @12:27AM (#7850226)
I was about to ask something similar. Ever wonder how other people view us engineers or white hat hackers? Misunderstood by outsiders? Perhaps this is applicable to the legal profession as well.
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by sliverstorm on Thursday June 05, 2014 @12:28AM (#7850231)
It's right there on the form they sign in blood at their initiation ritual. I forget whether they use their own blood, or the blood of the sacrificial goat though.
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by kennywinker on Wednesday June 04, 2014 @10:06PM (#7849797)
I think OP is suggesting reveal the effect, but don't reveal the cause. That's what makes the suggestion different from releasing an 0day
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by chime on Wednesday June 04, 2014 @10:21PM (#7849854)
If it's as easy as using 'strings', then isn't that no different than releasing a 0day?
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by 6d0debc071 on Thursday June 05, 2014 @05:52AM (#7851083)
If it's that simple he or she has, in effect, already released it.
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by hrktb on Thursday June 05, 2014 @02:55AM (#7850577)
I wonder if a lawyer really caring about his client wouldn't straight up say "just forget about it".

If the company you're criticising doesn't like critics, doesn't care about bad PR, and has to feed their lawyers, you won't have a good time any way you do it.

Some rare occasions you might be better off with a strong public opinion supporting you and people coming out of the bush to help your case, than trying to do it the sneaky way and still get caught in a hell of legal troubles that not much people really heard of, and you get cast as the little guy trying too pull money from the big corp because of the narrative sold to the media by your opponent.

Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by polarix on Wednesday June 04, 2014 @10:14PM (#7849828)
And who pays the lawyer?
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by aaronbrethorst on Wednesday June 04, 2014 @10:33PM (#7849881)
I expect that any savvy lawyer would be happy to take this pro bono. Think of how much free publicity they'd get for their practice.
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by eps on Thursday June 05, 2014 @02:19AM (#7850483)
Ah, excellent plan. That's a variation of a good old "you should write us an app / design a logo / sketch a website for free, just for all the exposure you get".
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by baddox on Thursday June 05, 2014 @04:06AM (#7850799)
I see a lot of people on the Internet implying that there are plenty of lawyers just sitting around waiting for interesting and potentially high profile cases to take on for free. I've never seen any evidence of this, and I suspect there are very few.
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by aaronbrethorst on Thursday June 05, 2014 @01:29PM (#7853038)
http://www2.nycbar.org/mp3/DoingWellByDoingGood/pbi_business...

    Major pro bono matters, or smaller cases with great
    human interest, are far more likely to receive extensive
    coverage. Holland & Knight, for example, received highly
    favorable and extensive coverage of its work in the
    Rosewood case, including a glowing front page, above the
    fold, article in the Wall Street Journal and People.

    Hogan & Hartson, similarly, received a great deal of
    play in the media concerning its representation of
    African-American plaintiffs alleging that Denny’s
    restaurants had discriminated against them. In both
    instances, the firms undertook these time-consuming,
    controversial cases because it was the right thing to
    do. However, their creative, successful lawyering
    became a front-page story.
Re:Can I drop a pacemaker 0day? by elwell on Thursday June 05, 2014 @02:50AM (#7850559)
> you would be morally culpable for any harm

Guns don't kill people...