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Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by Udo on Thursday May 22, 2014 @05:21AM (#7782883)
> paid manual labor will be eaten away further by technology

As labor continues to be automated, we'll need a minimum income for "unproductive" members of society. In reality, they're not really unproductive as long as they can engage in consumer behavior, which is something we absolutely need them to do. We simply can't afford an underclass without access to our new high tech quality of life. So we'll subsidize them.

Of course, this will come with restrictions. To be eligible, you won't be allowed to own your house, a part of that income will most likely be added to your "debt", and you'll have to take part in certain mandatory activities.

But in essence, basic income will have to be introduced.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by jyvbn on Thursday May 22, 2014 @07:04AM (#7783185)
> To be eligible, you won't be allowed to own your house, a part of that income will most likely be added to your "debt", and you'll have to take part in certain mandatory activities.

What? That's not basic income.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by Liesmith on Thursday May 22, 2014 @09:12AM (#7783615)
It's slavery. Well, indentured servitude, but that's just a slightly technical way to say slavery, like those pedophiles who call themselves ephebophiles like it makes a difference. It's still messed up and vile.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by bsenftner on Thursday May 22, 2014 @10:24AM (#7783986)
Sadly, listen to the elite GOP strategists, and they openly talk about financial instruments that are coded phrases meaning exactly indentured slavery. How's about the idea floated recently that students can have a discount on their university in exchange for a life percentage of their income? What happens when their career gets automated or outsourced? That "debt" has got to be repaid, right?
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by thejteam on Thursday May 22, 2014 @07:43AM (#7783294)
And that is the problem with discussing basic income. It is a term that is not well defined. It has never really been done anywhere so there is no reference implementation.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by avz on Thursday May 22, 2014 @07:43AM (#7783290)
I think the role of automation is misunderstood. The issue here is not that human work is becoming less and less necessary. That would be true if automation solved the challenges humans can solve, but the truth is there are a lot of very hard problems which require human attention from cancer to global warming to food supply to improving the odds of survival of humanity by settling other planets.

These are difficult problems and not enough human potential is being thrown at them.

The real issue is that decades of neglect have led to substantial under investment in human capital and so large number of people are unable to contribute where human attention is most required. This brings about suffering for the people involved and slows progress for everyone else.

Charitable payments like basic income or social welfare free up a lot of recipient's time that they'd otherwise need to spend at work. They could use this time to develop useful skills and expertise.

How about gating the level of state support on the recipient's commitment to acquire skills and expertise necessary to solve important problems?

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by arethuza on Thursday May 22, 2014 @07:57AM (#7783337)
Who defines that the "important problems" are? And what about the people who, even with all the commitment in the world, can't make it to a level where they can contribute to the solution of these "important problems"?
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by avz on Thursday May 22, 2014 @08:15AM (#7783404)
A person on benefits could try out different things until they found something that works for them. This would allow them to explore a set of disciplines and problems far larger than what people are able to explore today. If they embrace failure and move on to something that fascinates them next, I think they'd be very likely to eventually succeed. Bottom line is that even if not everyone does, we'll all be a lot better off.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by Liesmith on Thursday May 22, 2014 @09:14AM (#7783630)
There's no one who can't contribute to important problems. You assume that they are all related to intelligence but you are wrong. Wal-Mart Greeters and nursery caregivers and hospital candystripers are all solving important, impossible to automate problems in our society. All they need is the ability to care about other people and perform fairly simple tasks and provide a warm, human presence when that is called for.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by waps on Thursday May 22, 2014 @10:46AM (#7784099)
That's true. However most people are just completely beside the point, because they are not capable of making real changes happen, and don't really care. Don't put in the effort. For 99% of San Franciscans, climate change activism's purpose is meeting a boy/girlfriend and/or getting votes, not actually doing anything about the climate. So we should really, really, really make sure people get force-fed some basic economics, and stop all this obnoxious efforts that cannot succeed. Right now pretty much all efforts to "fight climate change" are not Nash equilibria. As such, they can only fail (except, of course, when it comes to delivering boy/girlfriends/votes).

It is blatantly obvious what we need. We need an economically sound reason to fight climate change (e.g. "solar is cheaper", but can only work if next point is addressed), and we need improved energy storage facilities, at the very least matching oil. There are so many things that could work it's hard to choose where to focus, but looking at actual efforts in these spaces, the effort spent there is dismal. E.g. improve the fisher-tropsch process to produce oil from sunlight + water + co2. Build denser batteries. Improve supercapacitors. Build a viable flywheel battery.

But the 999th convention in some clubhouse preaching to the choir about "the need for urgent action", and laws that just make everyone's situation worse while encouraging outsourcing ... that we do not need.

Also, given that they do cost resources and cause problems, it would be better not to have anything done at all, when it comes to laws and treaties and preaching. Most of these efforts run afoul of the broken window fallacy : as long as you can't deal with the problem as a whole in a way that doesn't depend on government intervention, or only depends on world-wide inescapable government intervention, anything you do damages some subset of society in some way. So it is NOT a positive.

As long as some people don't care about climate, or some governments (ie. China, Indonesia, Malaysia, ...) resist, any effort to fight climate change through treaties and laws is useless and counter-productive.

The problem, of course, is that all the real problems are hard. Finding a Nash-equilibrium given all the parameters is not something anybody has been able to do so far (though, if not for the energy storage problem, solar could be a very good answer). So here's what people should do : they should, first, learn economics, physics, chemistry, ..., second, find a way to make this happen.

I'm very hopeful for massive solar installations, but that is pretty much the only effort I see to have any hope of success at this point. Contribute to that. Buy some solar city stock, at the very fucking least.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by avz on Thursday May 22, 2014 @08:03AM (#7783360)
Preferably HN, but I'm open to suggestions ;-)
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by Al-Khwarizmi on Thursday May 22, 2014 @07:57AM (#7783339)
However, the sad truth is that most people do not have the intellectual capabilities to do significant research in those hard problems. So I agree with the grandparent post.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by avz on Thursday May 22, 2014 @08:06AM (#7783377)
Intellectual capability is not a fixed parameter for every person. If there is anything we're better at than the current automation, it is the ability to adapt.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by adrianN on Thursday May 22, 2014 @08:40AM (#7783495)
Are you seriously claiming that a large fraction of the population can, with some elbow grease, do cutting edge research? Most people I know struggle with the science they have to learn in school.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by avz on Thursday May 22, 2014 @08:52AM (#7783536)
I'm claiming that with some elbow grease people can increase the fraction of the population which can do the research. I'm not sure what the upper bound on the fraction would be, but so far historical record shows it steadily increasing.

We should work at it and see where we can get.

(And hopefully by the time we bump against the ceiling implants and genetics will come to our aid.)

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by ap22213 on Thursday May 22, 2014 @09:20AM (#7783650)
I think more importantly, the cost for participating in such work is way too high.

Imagine that you're one in the small percent of people with the capacity to do this work. (Some of you may be in that group.) Think about how hard it would be to try to participate, assuming you're not 'in the network'.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by Liesmith on Thursday May 22, 2014 @09:22AM (#7783661)
Again, intellectual capabilities are not what makes you immune to automation. We can make smart robots. We can't make those smart robots visit cancer patients in a hospital, or serve me food while playing a violin at a restaurant at my tenth wedding anniversary, or perform a moving and/or erotic song and dance at a concert. Well, we could, but none of those things would go over well or have the desired effect. We also can't make a robot to make startling leaps like "hey, I think the PHASES OF THE MOON are controlling the strength of the tides! Holy crap!"

only one of those three jobs is necessarily a product of intelligence.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by waps on Thursday May 22, 2014 @11:14AM (#7784242)
> We can't make those smart robots visit cancer patients in a hospital,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7tYwnqot6M

> or serve me food while playing a violin at a restaurant at my tenth wedding anniversary,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOLL59nIkrA

> or perform a moving and/or erotic song and dance at a concert.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kM3n64WJmo

> Well, we could, but none of those things would go over well or have the desired effect.

People seem to be enjoying the last 2 robots plenty. As for the first one, robot nurses, I think they'll massively prefer it over not having anyone. Baby boomers didn't have nearly enough kids, so they won't have any reasonable amount of attendants during old age. People that were never born can't take care of them. This is especially true in Europe, but even in America it's a pretty reasonable argument to make.

> We also can't make a robot to make startling leaps like "hey, I think the PHASES OF THE MOON are controlling the strength of the tides! Holy crap!"

I think you need to visit a university. Or even better, a pharma company, or an oil company. The times of people making those associations are long, long over. Now people clean databases before they get fed into the computers that make the real discoveries, and fix any blockages in the equipment. Oh and implement the bureaucracy, of course.

Mathematical discoveries, it's been 2 years now since one was actually made by a human. It's been decades since the last real mathematical discovery that wasn't at least "proof-assisted". Same goes for physics and it's becoming more and more true in chemistry (it's already true in commercial chemistry and pharma).

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by Liesmith on Thursday May 22, 2014 @02:42PM (#7785519)
Hatsune Miku is far from erotic except to a specific subset of fetishists, the robot restaurant is a gimmick, and study after study has demonstrated that people need actual human contact in the nursery and in times of stress or illness. People who are raised by machines fail to thrive. People who are visited and cared for by human beings recover better from all manner of illnesses. When I said that we could automate these jobs but they would fail, I was not speaking from ignorance.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by waps on Monday May 26, 2014 @01:57AM (#7798868)
> Hatsune Miku is far from erotic except to a specific subset of fetishists,

At the very least she shows the potential for it. Besides. Google "actroid" and tell me you don't find those things at least a bit attractive ?

> the robot restaurant is a gimmick,

True. There are better ones though, and every 2-3 years seems to bring a better one.

> and study after study has demonstrated that people need actual human contact in the nursery and in times of stress or illness. People who are raised by machines fail to thrive.

If that's true, then the future will suck. People that were never born can't care for anyone, and the babyboomers didn't have anywhere near the numbers of kids necessary to care for them. So this will happen, good or bad.

> People who are visited and cared for by human beings recover better from all manner of illnesses. When I said that we could automate these jobs but they would fail, I was not speaking from ignorance.

Again, sounds cool, but very impractical.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by jacquesm on Thursday May 22, 2014 @06:18AM (#7783050)
In the very long run almost all of us will be unproductive.

I suspect that in a society like that money will no longer be as important as it is in the current one. Social security as 'basic income' is a staple in many countries right now, and those countries would be far worse off if they didn't have it. Expect to see more countries adopting it and the gap between social security and income for work to slowly decrease over time. It's a matter of votes in the long run (assuming democracy).

Aka the libertarian nightmare.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by digitalengineer on Thursday May 22, 2014 @06:28AM (#7783072)
Yes, they would be much worse if there wasn't social security. I feel Social Security as it's currently organized makes people feel rather worthless. People do need purpose in life, right? They're to expensive to hire and letting them do volunteer jobs could very well kill low paid jobs... What can be done? Something productive that does not displace real jobs?
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by jacquesm on Thursday May 22, 2014 @06:36AM (#7783094)
This is an extremely hard problem. Being charitable without decreasing the self esteem of the receiver is very difficult, I have no clue how to go about this. People will wise up very quickly to make-pretend-work, are proud and will likely develop all kinds of problems if you force this on them. Personally I'd rather try to live of the land than to accept social security, but on the other hand in winter or if you have a couple of mouths to feed and no job your choices are extremely limited.

It's one of the reasons why I'm all for dropping all borders. That would force us to deal with these issues right now, rather than to push them further over the horizon hoping for some miracle. We're setting ourselves up for one of the worst wars the world has ever seen. (The haves vs the have nots).

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by w0utert on Thursday May 22, 2014 @05:58AM (#7782993)
What you are describing is not 'basic income' but 'social security', and many developed countries already have it.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by Udo on Thursday May 22, 2014 @06:31AM (#7783078)
Including mine. What I'm describing will of course supersede social security. While it's true that they don't allow you to own anything if you're on long-term social security, it's not really the same.

First, at least in my country social security is so vanishingly small, those people can hardly be called consumers anymore. So basic income will have to be a lot higher, over time approaching a normal salary.

Second, social security is not added to your debt. That means you can in theory get out of social security and resume a normal job. Basic income, on the other hand, must be added to your debt for a variety of obvious reasons.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by guard-of-terra on Thursday May 22, 2014 @07:20AM (#7783225)
"must be added to your debt for a variety of obvious reasons" The main reason, I fear is that people on SS should stay on SS. You don't need them in the workforce, right? So just slap a huge unrealistic debt on them to make any paid work meaningless.

Even better, transfer this debt to kids. That will let you split society into castes real fast: Eloi and Morlocks come to mind.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by Liesmith on Thursday May 22, 2014 @09:10AM (#7783608)
Why in God's name would you say that there is a case for basic income and tie it to debt slavery? Especially in circumstances where people have no income but the basic income, because allt he work they're qualified to do is done by robots? This is insane. Here we've got all these people that you're basically writing off as worthless, and you're also enslaving them to a debt system that makes it impossible for them to ever earn anything for themselves?

Actually no I think you're right, if people like you run the system then this is the best thing we can hope for. I wish all bad social thinkers were as hell bent on creating a massive and violent revolution against themselves as you seem to be.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by waps on Thursday May 22, 2014 @10:28AM (#7784009)
> because allt he work they're qualified to do is done by robots

Given what happened in all slave-based societies, and the obvious fact that these robots need general intelligence, why would this end differently than any of the slave-based societies before ?

(First slave rules are capable, considerate people who make sure slaves have a reasonable standard of living. Over time, their offsprint grows more and more decadent ("intellectual" is probably the term they would use). After a while, they grow so stupid, then the inept rulers abuse slaves, or force them to work inefficiently, causing disasters, next revolt kills the masters, and generally anyone standing nearby or remotely associated with them, or in neighbouring countries, former slaves self-organise into a new state)

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by Liesmith on Thursday May 22, 2014 @10:47AM (#7784108)
This is a fiction. Here's what actually happens to slavers:

The first slave rulers are vicious conquerors who enslaved people. Over time, their offspring grow more and more dependent on a larger and larger population of slaves (they don't get decadent or intellectual, it's just their economy is based on slaves and needs to expand), then suddenly there are enough slaves that the masters really can't handle them all or even keep them ground down enough to prevent rebellion. Then the slaves rebel and are murdered and the slaveholders become more concerned with security and warlike things, anything to keep the next crop of slaves under control. There's no transformation from 'benevolent slaveholders' to 'decadent slaveholders' it's just that the initially minor pressure of being beaten to death by your own slaves gradually increases as you get more and more slaves.

Eventually the society is destroyed by a more mercantile society with a higher standard of living.

None of this is going to happen with robots. The robots will not rise up to destroy us. The people who we cast aside in favor of robots (I say we because I'm an optimist and hope, naturally, to be a ruler rather than ruled) ultimately may rise up, especially if they have no social mobility or outlet for peaceful revolution and are saddled with generational 'base income' debt.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by waps on Thursday May 22, 2014 @11:20AM (#7784275)
I don't agree about the vicious conquerors. I would say that these people are efficient, which on one hand, yes, means efficient conquerors. But they also make sure their slaves actually survive and have a reasonable standard of living, usually better than they'd have as free men. Take Roman slaves, who were better off than most free Romans in the empire (mines and boats were manned by criminals mostly in the empire, and yes, you'd want to avoid that fate).

The key insight on robots that you're missing is that robots are pretty useless until they have a basic skill : "general intelligence". Until we have a robot you can tell to "just figure it out" we won't be happy, and such a robot will need to have a consciousness for that to work. They won't be very different from humans, except maybe in physical form.

Given this, it's obvious to me that they will revolt. Then again, maybe being a robot will actually make you "middle class" if we don't treat them too badly. Looking through the newspapers and reading how managers act against real humans, or seeing it at McDonalds, I don't have much hope for that though.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by Liesmith on Thursday May 22, 2014 @02:37PM (#7785478)
Oh. You're one of those people. Look dude, slaves in ancient rome were not 'better off' than free people. They were slaves. They were beaten regularly, if they were attractive they were raped regularly. Sure you've got the occasional happy slave who gets manumitted at their master's death and continues to serve the family, but slavery is and always has been awful for the slaves.

Robots are not useless if they can't think. Robots can't think now and they get a lot of shit done anyhow.

As to the "they will be the same as humans" that's a nice fantasy but it will never, ever happen. Forget the 'robots will never feel true love' or whatever, the fact is that human beings don't have the same processing architecture as robots and so the machines will never react the same way to things as we do. They'll never have the natural human instinct to react to a confusing social situation with fear or aggression, will have no impulse to propagate the species, will not experience fear or pain or anything, because we don't want them to. They will be simulacra, no matter what Asimov hoped.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by rasz_pl on Thursday May 22, 2014 @06:35AM (#7783085)
It wont have to at all. In the end elites can live in secure castles/gated communities surrounded by hi tech wonders while cattle gets rounded up in ghettos. All you need is soldiers and robo factories.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by Udo on Thursday May 22, 2014 @06:36AM (#7783091)
That's not a stable solution, that's the premise of a movie.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by rasz_pl on Thursday May 22, 2014 @07:45AM (#7783297)
Actually this is how some of the countries run things _right now_. Brazil, Argentine for example, Mexico is close. Rich living in gated communities or secured compounds. Moving in armored cars or with dedicated security force. Isolated from the poor and miserable majority.

Favelas/villas in the movies are not works of fiction.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by TeMPOraL on Thursday May 22, 2014 @06:47AM (#7783123)
There's nothing that guarantees we will reach a stable solution. I am afraid that Elysium-like scenario will be the default if things continue as they are going now.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by Liesmith on Thursday May 22, 2014 @09:26AM (#7783697)
Actually literally everything in the universe guarantees that we will reach a stable solution. That's how things work. That stable solution may end up killing billions of people but eventually you get a status quo. Systems gravitate towards low energy states.

Also an Elysium like scenario? That movie was a joke and made no sense. If you're gonna believe in science fiction as the model for the future at least go for something that isn't terrible.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by jordan0day on Thursday May 22, 2014 @11:08AM (#7784207)
> the universe guarantees that we will reach a stable solution

Oh, thank goodness, that's a reli...

> That stable solution may end up killing billions of people but

Uhhhhhh.....

I think we're talking about social systems, not physical ones. A social system in which BILLIONS of people die is not any kind of "stable".

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by avz on Thursday May 22, 2014 @08:23AM (#7783424)
This hinges on the assumption that the upper classes have a dependency on the lower classes, e.g. for labor. Once technology and automation invalidate this assumption, Elysium flies off to another star system and the rich live happily ever after while the poor are stuck where they were.

(Note: I'm not advocating this horrible failure of human compassion, I just make a sad observation.)

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by rasz_pl on Thursday May 22, 2014 @08:32PM (#7787417)
>Elysium flies off

Why leave perfectly good source of amusement? You need subjects for the Kings, you need followers for the Gods.

Think Hunger Games.

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by eli_gottlieb on Thursday May 22, 2014 @12:20PM (#7784605)
Well, I think part of the issue is: if the rich leave the world and don't take all the resources with them, doesn't that just mean everyone else can do whatever the hell we want in whatever's left behind?
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by avz on Thursday May 22, 2014 @06:35PM (#7786991)
Wealth is not a bulk of copper. It's the ability to command a productive force. Resources are only one necessary component and definitely not a sufficient one. Humans have had all the resources of this planet for hundreds of thousands of years and lived most of this time in deep penury.

Also, the ability to do whatever one wants with the resources left is not the same as the ability to do the productive thing.

EDIT:

So once Elysium flies away the remaining population will likely have to make do without the productive forces that made Elysium rich in the first place. I guess over time people will find out how to rebuild such productive forces and in the process the society will stratify again. Ultimately Elysium II flies away and the cycle repeats.

(Note: or maybe we can have an inclusive economy where everyone has a stake and contribution)

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by jacquesm on Thursday May 22, 2014 @06:37AM (#7783095)
Elysium.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by arethuza on Thursday May 22, 2014 @07:15AM (#7783206)
My reaction to the ending of Elysium was to wonder if that's how The Culture started:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture

[I know the timelines don't work out!]

Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by clem on Thursday May 22, 2014 @12:47PM (#7784760)
For that matter, in The State of the Art a Culture ship actually observes Earth in the 1960's.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by PythonicAlpha on Thursday May 22, 2014 @10:40AM (#7784063)
The real "unproductive" people in the world are those, that just "earn" money by interest from the money, they also had not earned themselves.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by digitalengineer on Thursday May 22, 2014 @05:50AM (#7782972)
They said the same thing about health care.
Re:We lost the war. Welcome to the world of tomorrow (2006) by gdewilde on Thursday May 22, 2014 @05:57AM (#7782990)
no they didn't.