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Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by VonGuard on Friday May 16, 2014 @11:01AM (#7755820)
Don't quite know why this is here, but if you haven't read any Douglas Hofstadter, this is probably where to start. This is a book that will A: change your life, B: require a pencil and paper to read with, C: Introduce you to Bach's genius, and D: will probably give you a greater appreciation of social interactions and language if for no other reason than it boils all of consciousness down to, essentially, language.

I'm so over simplifying it, and there's a lot more here than this. But I still found it extremely interesting to read this and contemplate just how intricately tied to our inner-narratives we are. Without that never-ending dialog in our heads, we're not really sentient, and without a language, we can't have that dialog...

Again, way more here, but this was the big thing I took away. I am a strange loop, after all.

Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by lotsofmangos on Friday May 16, 2014 @11:13AM (#7755895)
Without that never-ending dialog in our heads, we're not really sentient

Stealing from Feynman here (edit, or more accurately his childhood friend Bennie), but most conscious thought is not verbal:

"Thinking is nothing but talking to yourself," said Feynman. "Oh yeah?" said Bennie. "Do you know the crazy shape of a crankshaft in a car? How did you describe it when you were talking to yourself?" http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1079.htm

I don't think that complex language is required for conscious thought, we can reason without language. Complex language is however required for storytelling and storytelling is required to transmit technologies without physically demonstrating them, hence it is required for technological development to spread beyond the limits of "monkey see, monkey do".

Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by judk on Friday May 16, 2014 @11:35AM (#7756022)
Comprehending a crankshaft is not conscious thought. Most conscious thought is language.
Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by pault on Friday May 16, 2014 @12:32PM (#7756313)
Spatial reasoning is absolutely a form of reasoning (it's right there in the name!). I don't have any references handy, but I've read a few accounts of musical and math prodigies who have a form of synesthesia that allows them to "see" notes and numbers, respectively, which allows one to reason about abstract concepts as easily as you or I could spot the difference between a circle and a square. Very interesting stuff.
Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by rrss1122 on Friday May 16, 2014 @11:50AM (#7756096)
I think it is. The actual process of comprehending a crankshaft uses conscious thought as a conduit to transfer the idea into memory.

However, I think lotsofmangos in the Feynman quote was referring to the process of visualizing a crankshaft, which is most definitely conscious thought. Visualization is often not language in the mind.

Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by MrRoger on Friday May 16, 2014 @12:26PM (#7756279)
Visualization is language, but of a different kind. Take those who are born deaf and think in signs.
Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by pdpi on Friday May 16, 2014 @11:29AM (#7755975)
> it boils all of consciousness down to, essentially, language.

Really? I'd have said that it boiled consciousness down to the idea of self-reference (what he calls "strange loops").

EDIT: Perhaps you mean Le Ton Beau de Marot? That one definitely deals with the relationship between language and consciousness.

Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by VonGuard on Friday May 16, 2014 @02:15PM (#7756924)
Yeah, that's the one. I said I simplified it greatly. And we wouldn't even be able to understand that we were strange loops without a language with which to define the terms.
Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by rrss1122 on Friday May 16, 2014 @11:46AM (#7756071)
I think you're going a little too far with A: change your life. It's definitely an entertaining read, but that's as far as it goes for me.
Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by lucastx on Friday May 16, 2014 @12:09PM (#7756201)
It changed my life as well -- along with other great books he wrote:

"The Mind's I", a collaboration with Daniel Dennett, is a more light read than Gödel Escher Bach which also talks about consciousness, emergence and cognition.

"Metamagical Themas" is a collection of fascinating articles he wrote for Scientific American after Martin Gardner stopped publishing his "Mathematical Games" (do you see what he did here?)

I can perceive the influence his ideas have in the way I raise my child, relate to people and act in the world. I would go as far as to say that my spirituality was sparked by his texts, specially those related to Zen and consciousness.

Sure, YMMV -- this is entirely subjective (as everything in life, really).

Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by dominotw on Friday May 16, 2014 @12:54PM (#7756441)
>It changed my life as well -

Lots of people are saying this here. May I ask how it changed your life?

Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by lucastx on Friday May 16, 2014 @01:28PM (#7756646)
It introduced me to cognition as a emergent phenomena (specially the chapter "Prelude ... Ant Fugue" [1]).

It made me think about various philosophical topics such as holism vs reductionism and syntax vs semantics, the meaning of "meaning", intelligence, cognition...

...and then absolutely blew them all with the Zen approach to life.

[1] http://themindi.blogspot.com.br/2007/02/chapter-11-prelude-a...

Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by eqdw on Friday May 16, 2014 @12:55PM (#7756448)
GEB was one of the single biggest influences on me to leave the religion I was raised in. In short, GEB gave a sensible, intuitive, and non-magical explanation to things that I would have previously ascribed to a mystical soul that Jesus made.

This book set me down a line of really thinking and investigating and filling in the gaps that god was hiding in. Now I'm nonreligious.

This book might not change the median person's life, but it changed mine

Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by samstave on Friday May 16, 2014 @02:19PM (#7756963)
Just a minor personal nit-pick; I still find the simple, base fact that we exist in this farking incredible reality to be magical and mystical AND with the benefit that we have the potential for literally fully grokking what the exact nature of "being" and "conscioussness" is at some point in the future.

That as we evolve our understanding and discover the next great secret that the universe holds for us, we will be continually and profoundly affected by how beautiful and blessed we are to simply have the opportunity to exist!

Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by breadbox on Friday May 16, 2014 @12:24PM (#7756271)
I would say that it changed my life. However, I read it when I was 18, at that point where any number of books have the ability to change your life.
Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by dominotw on Friday May 16, 2014 @12:53PM (#7756436)
Do you mind me asking how it changed it your life?
Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by breadbox on Friday May 16, 2014 @02:37PM (#7757117)
I was at the perfect level of education to appreciate the information in GEB. I was a young programmer and math enthusiast with an average high-school education. My knowledge of Boolean logic went as far as De Morgan's law. I knew next to nothing about classical music, functional programming, meta-mathematics, propositional calculus, Dadaism, or molecular biology.

Reading GEB felt like reading the Cliff Notes to an entire college education especially tailored for the kind of person I didn't yet realize I already was.

Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by cgh on Friday May 16, 2014 @12:39PM (#7756363)
Add me to the chorus. I first read it in high school and it fascinated me from the first page. Living in an isolated small town, I instantly knew this was the sort of thing I'd been yearning for. I've read it a few times since.

Thomas Pynchon's "V." had the same effect.

Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by beat on Friday May 16, 2014 @11:57AM (#7756144)
It can definitely change the way you think about consciousness (and about software). Anyone who doesn't have their mind significantly altered by it is either a genius, extraordinarily well educated going in, or just doesn't get it.
Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by stuaxo on Friday May 16, 2014 @12:04PM (#7756179)
That's a bit patronizing ... disclaimer - the book is sitting on my shelf, but I haven't got round to reading it.
Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by barkingcat on Friday May 16, 2014 @12:42PM (#7756377)
You should totally read it! It's a good read. It made me realise a math book could be written in that way and actually be "rigorous".

For me, at 17 when I read it, math was just a bunch of symbols and exercises. It introduced me to logic and reasoning, made me think about the world differently.

It's like the real red pill in the matrix that's not just something you swallow. You think about it, and you start wondering what else you think you knew about math and the world can be challenged.

It made me a braver man. In that sense, it did change my life.

Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by barkingcat on Friday May 16, 2014 @12:47PM (#7756401)
Also, mentions of genius is not unwarranted when you think about the 3 names mentioned: Godel, Escher, Bach. The book ties things back to how these three people thought about the world, and how their art and thinking can be tied into math.

I think if your mind isn't changed after reading about these figures, then you haven't really gotten it.

Hofstadter isn't necessarily the main attraction here. He created a framework (ie the structure of the book) where these subjects can be reasoned about.

Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by beat on Friday May 16, 2014 @01:07PM (#7756520)
Not to mention Lewis Carroll!

Admittedly, I read it in formative years, but until I read GEB, I didn't really grok what "genius" meant. Understanding strange loops in context of great thinkers who expressed it, and seeing strange loops as the nature of consciousness, and wondering how it could be expressed in software... blew my mind, in several senses of the phrase.

Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by beat on Friday May 16, 2014 @12:40PM (#7756366)
It's not patronizing, it's honest. Read the book, and you'll agree with me. (And it's hardly the only book that gets this credit - something like Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason", or Robert Anton Wilson's Illuminatus! trilogy, or any number of other books will fundamentally change how you think.)
Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by georgeecollins on Friday May 16, 2014 @04:28PM (#7757725)
It changed my life.
Re:Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by mihok on Friday May 16, 2014 @11:05AM (#7755852)
Spot on, I have the exact same sentiments about the book. It was such an incredible read, albeit a bit dry at times, it is defiantly worth reading if you haven't already.