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Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by aaron-lebo on Thursday March 20, 2014 @05:12PM (#7438844)
> FDR turned giving money away into something that was literally awesome, using the Tennessee Valley Authority to reshape the landscape with bridges and dams.

Some more libertarian-minded folks would probably make the point that the government is never actually giving away money, it got that money by obtaining it from somewhere else. Regardless, government spending is definitely not charity in any traditional sense.

Not to mention, that was a very difficult time. Spending money on a project like that was perhaps necessary just to keep things going. Getting back to your original point, can you make spending cool, or transfer of money from the wealthy to the poor cool by private means (charity) when it isn't required?

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by dragonwriter on Thursday March 20, 2014 @05:19PM (#7438887)
> Some more libertarian-minded folks would probably make the point that the government is never actually giving away money, it got that money by obtaining it from somewhere else.

Almost everyone giving away money got it from somewhere else.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by nova on Thursday March 20, 2014 @05:29PM (#7438954)
From mutual agreement in exchange of goods and services, or by force. Not the same. Only thieves and governments do the latter.
Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by squidfood on Thursday March 20, 2014 @05:50PM (#7439083)
I dunno. I think the system of laws by which we elect people, they set taxes, build a road, and if we don't like the exchange we turn them out, is as close to "mutual agreement" as a city or larger-sized group of people can come up with...
Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by technologue on Thursday March 20, 2014 @06:53PM (#7439431)
Wrong Wrong Wrong. Could not be more wrong.

Freedom of Contract is one of the most important concepts of free market capitalism. People must have the right to review the terms of contract, decide to sign or not and be held to the terms, and there should be penalties for breach on both sides and conditions for dissolution of the contract.

The "Social Contract" you are talking about is no contract at all. It is imposed by force, you are given no chance to sign, a false choice (red or blue!) and only 1/385millionth of a say in it. There is no remedy for breach and no conditions for dissolution. It is the very opposite of voluntary exchange and mutual agreement.

DO NOT conflate the two, or go back to whatever liberal arts school terribly educated you.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by jjoonathan on Friday March 21, 2014 @01:16AM (#7440770)
> The "Social Contract" you are talking about is no contract at all. It is imposed by force, you are given no chance to sign, a false choice (red or blue!) and only 1/385millionth of a say in it.

For the vast majority of people, contracts provided by the market are an even worse false choice: Maslow's Hierarchy imposes needs on every individual, fixing the supply of labor at a lower bound which is empirically observed to lie far above the demand for it, thereby commoditizing the unskilled worker and coupling his salary to the minimum dictated by his Maslow needs rather than to the value he creates. The difference goes to his employer, and a non-governmental tax is exacted upon each of his purchases that is distributed to local capital-holders according to their wealth, exacerbating the imbalance in an exponential feedback loop. There is no remedy when his employer resorts to wage theft (frequently), because the justice system requires time and capital that he does not have to achieve the simplest forms of redress. There are conditions for dissolution, but he fears them, because written between the lines are an economic certainty that will dash him repeatedly against the rocky shores of unemployment and homelessness.

This is a laughable notion of consent. When did he agree to have Maslow's needs imposed upon him? When did he agree to abide by the rules of a game that systematically disadvantages him? When did he agree to initial conditions that give him far less than 1/400millionth of a share in economic power? This is the very opposite of what someone with a choice would have chosen.

The only things this hypothetical worker has going for him came from the government: minimum wage laws (and yes, I believe these are a good thing, since wages in commoditized labor markets tend towards the lower end rather than the higher end of the economically feasible range), worker safety standards, subsidized food and health care, education for his children, and so on. None of this is speculation: we can look to history to see what happened when government did not "intrude" on these areas of life.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by squidfood on Thursday March 20, 2014 @06:59PM (#7439470)
PhD in STEM, if it matters. And as someone who specifically and directly moved from one city to another because I didn't like the local policies (school district, in this case), I'm a straightforward and simple example of someone who left one social contract for another and paid for the privilege, thanks.

(If I repeat the word "wrong" a few more times, will it improve my opinion?)

The mistake of both libertarians and liberals in these loud arguments is that they focus on the top (national government) where the real social contracts start locally. If you start to build up a system of local social contracts; well, if it quacks like a government, it's a government, even if you'd rather call it a Homeowner's Association with Guns.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by technologue on Thursday March 20, 2014 @07:30PM (#7439637)
Governance is fine, but there are contractual forms of governance and non-contractual (non-consensual) forms of governance.

But please don't use "social contract", it's just a liar's word. It is neither social or contractual what people do under a "social contract". It is naked force: "Do what I say or I will hurt you".

Since you have a PhD, I'll assume that you are not so lazy you can't separate these things in your brain.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by _delirium on Thursday March 20, 2014 @07:34PM (#7439654)
Your level of confidence seems entirely out of line with the level of education in politics and history you display here. Instead of insulting people from a position of ignorance, why not read more books? Sorry for putting it bluntly, but every one of your comments in this discussion so far is a rudely worded assertion of something that at best is highly contested, and at worst something you could not even possibly believe if you had read more than a few libertarian newsletters and websites. Not even if you had read only libertarian-leaning theorists (such as Hayek). Stop it.
Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by technologue on Thursday March 20, 2014 @07:42PM (#7439701)
Since you've advanced literally no argument, I don't feel a need to respond to this. Sorry I hurt your brain?
Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by _delirium on Thursday March 20, 2014 @07:44PM (#7439711)
Here is an argument, which I have carefully tailored to the level of the arguments you have advanced:

Democracy, augmented with some anti-majoritarian safeguards, is a reasonable way of organizing society on a basis that generally advances overall liberties, and social-contract theory provides a reasonable philosophical basis. Libertarian freedom-of-contract is essentially a right to indentured servitude with only the barest attention paid to anything resembling actual real-world liberty or genuine consent, and only people who are either primitivist hippies living in the woods, or malicious exploiters, promote it as a fundamental good. And also anyone who disagrees with this paragraph is dumb.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by mindcrime on Friday March 21, 2014 @12:32AM (#7440679)
The problem here is that you are choosing your definitions for "real-world liberty" and "genuine consent", etc. I guess if your point was only to make a point about the parent post doing the same thing, then, erm.. good job? But as an argument in it's own right, I don't find this very compelling.

Anyway, technologue has a point in suggesting that the "social contract" is worthy of skepticism. And I, for one, will join him/her in rejecting the notion of nebulous implicit contracts of this type. When considering this, I'm reminded of what Thomas Paine said about the absurdity of the dead being able to bind the living.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by squidfood on Friday March 21, 2014 @12:13PM (#7443104)
Well sure, "social contract" is an imperfect metaphor, but it's not devoid of meaning, nor divorced from the idea of contracts.

It's the living that bind the living.

Specifically, previous but still-living generations. No one comes of age in a vacuum. If you inherit the benefits (or situations) of the previous generations, you don't just inherit the good stuff, you inherit the debts of the previous generation as well.

Looking way, way back, one can say that the first settlers in a given region might have formed a consensual contract, and the "social" contract is what each continuous generation inherits.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by Steko on Thursday March 20, 2014 @08:13PM (#7439831)
1. Collect all the downvotes.

2. ???

3. Declare victory.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by nl on Thursday March 20, 2014 @08:49PM (#7439956)
Sometimes trolling is its own reward.

Check their comment history.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by vernie on Thursday March 20, 2014 @09:14PM (#7440045)
How'd you get that cool light gray text for all your posts?
Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by valas on Thursday March 20, 2014 @07:52PM (#7439743)
> "People must have the right to review the terms of contract, decide to sign or not"

You are describing a universe which only exist in an imaginary island where all the Galts are living. "Freedom of Contract" works when there are one or two similar-sized parties involved, but it does not scale well beyond that. Try renting a car with a customer agreement tailored for your liking; or try negotiating custom EULA with vendor of whatever browser you are using to post your comments.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by jjoonathan on Friday March 21, 2014 @01:17AM (#7440775)
Also, you'd better hope that the accessible methods of accumulating wealth haven't already been commoditized (which amounts to hoping that you are special in a world with plenty of people).
Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by vacri on Thursday March 20, 2014 @09:23PM (#7440070)
Do you actually sign a contract when you buy a loaf of bread?
Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by Turing_Machine on Friday March 21, 2014 @12:27AM (#7440665)
It isn't signed, but there is definitely a contract in that situation.
Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by vacri on Friday March 21, 2014 @01:14AM (#7440765)
My point is that the terms in the sale of a loaf of bread are implicit, just like those in the social contract. The idea that it isn't a free market until you sign a document is demonstrably false.
Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by Turing_Machine on Friday March 21, 2014 @06:37AM (#7441497)
The contract law behind buying a loaf of bread is well-codified and settled.

The term "social contract" means whatever the person using the term wants it to mean.

Not the same thing. At all.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by Iftheshoefits on Friday March 21, 2014 @04:11PM (#7444608)
If it's well-codified and settled then you'll have absolutely no problem providing a complete, and completely uncontroversial, version of it.
Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by Turing_Machine on Friday March 21, 2014 @11:49PM (#7447414)
Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by boie0025 on Thursday March 20, 2014 @06:50PM (#7439421)
I don't know where you reside, but I always find it interesting when people in the US refer to taxation as thievery. In a representative democracy, the "government" is the people[^1]. Don't like taxes? Rally support behind yourself, and run for office.

[^1]: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_trans... see: preamble.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by marris on Thursday March 20, 2014 @07:39PM (#7439686)
I don't think your opponent believes that the US system is a "representative democracy" or a "democracy" or whatever it is that lets N-1 people take arbitrary stuff from 1 person. Your "rally support" solution would not fix the situation.
Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by tomp on Thursday March 20, 2014 @07:55PM (#7439756)
You're forgetting that that 1 person is also getting stuff from N-1 others - his freedom, safety, absence of famine/war/disease, ... It is simply illusionary to expect a person to be really well-off if everybody else around him is dirt poor. Yes, there were rich people throughout history, but today the average US/European citizen has better healthcare than anyone 20 years ago.
Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by boie0025 on Thursday March 20, 2014 @11:38PM (#7440517)
I don't think that it's fair to say that any "democratic" type of government lets any number of people take anything from any 1 (or any arbitrary grouping) person, it's that the self governed group decides that the cost of existing is paid collectively. And rallying support, from my understanding, is the only way to fix any situation in any type of "democracy".

[edit] More directly to your point, it's irrelevant what anyone thinks is "letting" government "steal", the "thievery" is enabled by laws which are created by elected representatives, therefore "the people" (aka government) is directly responsible for taxation.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by MisterBastahrd on Thursday March 20, 2014 @06:21PM (#7439274)
That's amazingly naive. Violence comes in more forms than just striking someone.

Democratic governments don't even enter into that frame of reference unless you want to have a governmental system where you elect a personal representative.

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by dannypgh on Friday March 21, 2014 @08:20AM (#7441793)
What about slavery? What about robber-barons paying strike breakers to shoot organizing workers - or for that matter, the missing Coca-Cola union organizers in Columbia?

What about businesses that made their money from violations of treaties with the Native Americans? Or from contracts to organize the data necessary for the Holocaust?

What about the people who ended up with a leg up in life due to inheriting any of the ill earned wealth above?

Or do you write most if not all off as thieves?

Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by a8000 on Thursday March 20, 2014 @06:45PM (#7439400)
Ironically if the Government was not spending that much money, fiat money would be worthless.
Re:Larry Page: I’d Rather Leave My Billions to Elon Musk Tha... by technologue on Thursday March 20, 2014 @06:48PM (#7439412)
Yeah a normal businessman doesn't threaten to throw me in jail if I don't give him money for his pet project. Please DO NOT conflate taxation with charity, they are NOT the same in any way, shape or form.