News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by ritchiea on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @02:54PM (#7430871)
I try to think this way. One thing I try to do is not work too much, so I had been freelancing trying to keep my hours to around 25 a week. It freed up time to do other things, I was learning to play guitar and working on some film scripts (I am using "was" because I decided to take on a full time programming gig until June but even this I didn't take for the money, it's way below market, I took the job because it sounded interesting).

One problem I encountered was people just not "getting it." And I don't mean random strangers, I mean potential clients. It's oddly difficult to tell people "I make enough money to support my lifestyle working 25 hours a week and I like to save the rest of my time for other projects that interest me." They expect you to be "doing more" or see you as lazy, after all why not make the most money you can possibly make at all times? When in fact I think I'm far less lazy than most people, I put a ton of effort into coding, educating myself, going the extra mile, working on projects for fun, reading technical books, going to talks. I'm also very serious about my pursuits beyond my programming "day job." And yet I've found it difficult to convey that, and that clients consider me unserious because I was intentionally working less than 40 hours a week even if they are looking for someone for a part time role.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by udfalkso on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @04:13PM (#7431508)
A few years ago I decided that I wanted more free time to work on side projects, travel, whatever, and I made what I thought was a rather reasonable offer to my current employer and a couple of suitors.

I said "pay me 3/5ths of the salary you just offered me and I'll work 3 days a week". I also offered to keep this arrangement flexible so that I could work in stretches of varying lengths if needed.

This did not go over well. People were actually offended by this proposition and it went nowhere.

As a founder myself, I understand the desire to only hire people that will give you their full heart and soul. But, I'm also a practical person and if someone's skills are valuable to me, then they are very likely still valuable in part.

In fact, when it comes to a product/engineering position, I think the employer would come out on top in such a scenario. They still get access to the person's brain and all of their knowledge and ideas. For someone that's being offered high compensation, their knowledge and ideas are probably a big part of the reason why.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by embwbam on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @04:30PM (#7431641)
I've tried this several times too and it has never worked well. I've been both employee and employer and I really wish people were more rational about this.

Not only that but I think this is the key to fix the economy! Think about it: if people could accept salary cuts for less work we would have more jobs and could transition to an eventual post-scarcity economy smoothly.

Creative workers don't output more than 25 quality hours a week anyway.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by ritchiea on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @04:35PM (#7431665)
I think for many people, most people even, this is not a rational decision. It's not about your time being worth a certain amount of value to the company and 4/5 or 3/5 of availability being worth proportionately less. Some people are offended by the idea of you wanting to structure your weeks differently in the first place & think of it purely as special treatment. They are obsessed with the idea of a five day work week and the traditional employer-employee relationship and accepting employment on non-standard terms would be giving away the employer's implicit power over the employee.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by rhizome on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @05:05PM (#7431845)
To the degree that they're actually offended, I think it may be more reflexive that the employee would put an upper bound on the amount of work they would do in a week.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by ritchiea on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @06:17PM (#7432255)
Then why go home or take off days at all?
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by rhizome on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @11:23PM (#7433627)
Because those are a couple of the things that government labor departments do tend to require.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by nanidin on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @05:16PM (#7431931)
We sort of have this system already in place - it's called part time work, and it's generally reserved for jobs that don't offer benefits like paid vacation time or health insurance.

If I am willing to work 3/5 days a week for 3/5 of the pay, do I also only get 3/5 of the health care coverage and 3/5 of the vacation time of my 5/5 peers?

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by corin_ on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @06:08PM (#7432211)
3/5 of vacation time - yes, why not? That's standard for part-time people here in the UK.

We obviously don't have the same healthcare situation as you, but surely it's just part of the negotiation? If 5 days a week is worth a $100k salary and $10k healthcare (don't ask me if that healthcare cost is 10x too high or 10x too low... but that doesn't matter) then 3 days a week is work $60k salary plus $6k healthcare. So offer that person $54k and healthcare. Or $66k and no healthcare. Simple enough, surely?

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by udfalkso on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @06:40PM (#7432385)
How about zero vacation time, and I keep the full healthcare? Or yeah, pay me 3/5 the healthcare, that's also reasonable. I'm sure this pice of the puzzle could be negotiated in each case.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by mattm on Thursday March 20, 2014 @01:08AM (#7434010)
> Creative workers don't output more than 25 quality hours a week anyway.

This is key. Most employers don't realise what a great deal this is. They are paying much less for probably the same amount of output. The person might even be more productive because they are more rested and can think better.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by markfinger on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @06:18PM (#7432263)
I've had fair success with similar arrangements (4 days instead of 5) and have found that I am just as productive in the 4 days as I am in the standard 5. The reduction in stress and the enjoyment that comes from pursuing your own interests has a tremendously positive impact on both your life and your work.

Arranging part-time conditions can be a slightly bumpy process: as stated above, management is often initially offended that you don't want to dedicate your life to their company, but framing your request correctly can smooth over most bumps.

When requesting a part-time arrangement I usually present it quite honestly: referring to a need for work/life balance, but also referring to the learning outcomes from pursuing challenging projects and the positive impacts they will have on my experience and capacity at work.

At the end of the day most managers realise that they are faced with either agreeing or facing the inevitable lose of an employee, but the decision can be made easier for them if you highlight the positive outcomes for your performance at work.

Incidentally, when I've described my part-time work schedule to friends and family, the universal response has been amazement and jealousy. The desire for a better work/life balance is such a common thing that I'm curious as to why so few people pursue better arrangements...?

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by udfalkso on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @06:47PM (#7432414)
Good advice thanks. I think the biggest fear they have is that they think other people will get jealous or ask for the same offer and it will spiral out of control. So, perhaps this works best if you work remotely, or if you try it with a very small company.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by Gustomaximus on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @07:06PM (#7432498)
Having spent most of my working life in corporate world, when I first came across people working side projects my initial reaction was that they wouldn't be a good employee. My assumption was they are here for a pay check while their passion and energy goes into their personal projects. Also you felt you'd train them up and they would be off in 6 months.

But working with a few of these guys I found they are usually the best employees. They tend to bring energy and innovation to everything they do and generally better than a corporate drone who really does just want to cash paychecks for the rest of their life. At least in my area of marketing where one needs to look for innovation. Also they didn't exit after 6 months as building side businesses takes time and don't all succeed. For me know I'd take side projects as a plus on a CV but I suspect many people will hold to that first instinct I felt.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by eswat on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @06:18PM (#7432264)
Yeah, this is a shame. I recently left my previous workplace due to a mix of burnout & boredom. I could tell this was brewing up inside me, so I asked to work 4 days a week.

Unfortunately leadership didn’t like the idea; were afraid of others doing the same. So instead of biting the bullet they lost me.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by vacri on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @06:24PM (#7432311)
I wonder if it was in the way you phrased it? Part-time work is commonplace in non-skilled industries, and for consultants in skilled industries. It's not common but certainly present in skilled industries. I imagine it's highly dependent on the type of work you do; part-time work coding for a non-core project would probably be more acceptable than part-time work as a client account manager, for example.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by interpol_p on Thursday March 20, 2014 @01:03AM (#7433998)
I did this a year ago and took four days a week for the relative pay cut. It was the best thing I've ever done related to work.

My one day off is for my own projects, and it has also become special time I can spend with my wife (I was able to convince her to do the same thing at her job).

I can't imagine going back to a full work week. All I can imagine doing is taking another day for my own projects when I can support it financially.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by mattm on Thursday March 20, 2014 @01:06AM (#7434004)
Are you looking for someone 3 days a week? If so, feel free to contact me.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by jarrett on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @03:03PM (#7430918)
How do clients become aware that you only work 25 hours per week?

If they're asking you "how much do you work," you can reply: "Considering my other commitments, I can give you 25 hours per week." They don't need to know what your other commitments are, and they'll probably be content to assume those commitments consist of other freelancing gigs.

My clients don't know any details about each other. They know I have multiple clients, but they don't know each other's identities, how many there are, or how much time I give to each.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by ritchiea on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @03:35PM (#7431190)
Thanks for the advice. Some people do ask out of curiosity in the initial conversation. Or just ask "what else are you working on?"
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by jackowayed on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @06:26PM (#7432318)
If I were in your shoes, I would frame the rest of the time as professional development, which is likely a positive sign that might convince them to give you high rates that at times grow.

"I aim for about 25 hours/week of client work so I have plenty of time for professional development and personal projects where I can focus on learning instead of delivering the best results for my clients."

If phrased right, you can make it sound like you're already an expert at what you're doing for them, which is why you don't necessarily learn as much from it, so it's important to spend time honing your skills in new areas so you can expand your offerings.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by jarrett on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @03:52PM (#7431332)
> Or just ask "what else are you working on?"

You could say something like this: "I'm generally not able to disclose details about other projects. But I can tell you that their effect on my availability will be..."

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by stinos on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @05:01PM (#7431829)
don't do that, just be straightforward instead. At least they know what they are dealing with, liking it or not is simething else. Sure, it's not a blatant lie, but imo it comes close enough. Suppose you do say this, and later a client finds out you actually hardly have any or no other projects ('work' projects, that is), I'm pretty sure they would think you haven't been completely honest. And such thoughts harm trust.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by jarrett on Sunday March 23, 2014 @01:52PM (#7454245)
> Sure, it's not a blatant lie, but imo it comes close enough.

That's only the case if you have literally no other projects. If you have even one other project, it's not the slightest bit misleading. All I recommended saying is that you don't disclose details about your other work. That statement implies nothing about the volume of the other work, except that it's non-zero.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by bad_user on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @03:20PM (#7431039)
Some clients want exclusivity for the period of the contract.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by jarrett on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @03:28PM (#7431109)
If they say they want that, they probably also mean they want 40+ hours a week. If your goal is to work below 40 hours, then such clients aren't for you. In that case it's not a question of them "getting it." You genuinely don't offer the service they want to buy.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by jonnathanson on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @04:12PM (#7431495)
This is very important.

One of the best skills you can develop as a freelancer is to read between the lines when doing client development. Some clients say they want a freelancer, but what they really want is a full-time, remote employee. They won't necessarily know that about themselves, and if they don't, they won't articulate it directly. So you need to get good at sussing things out.

Taking a pseudo-freelance, client-demands-full-time gig and trying to compress it into ~10 hours a week is a recipe for disaster. You won't please the client, you'll drive yourself insane, and you'll end up resenting the work.

The biggest favor you can do for yourself is to discriminate ahead of time. Determine which sorts of jobs, and which sorts of clients, fit with your model. Accept the ones that do; turn down the ones that don't. (Don't be afraid to refer someone who doesn't fit your model to a freelancer you know who is a better fit. It's just a good-karma thing.)

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by bad_user on Thursday March 20, 2014 @12:19PM (#7436492)
I disagree with you, it depends a lot on the problem.

If I were to hire a contractor to do work for me, I would require exclusivity for the duration of the contract and not because I want a certain number of hours necessarily. Being a developer I know that the delivered value is not directly related to the number of hours, I really do and in fact I'm skeptical of the value delivered by people claiming to work long hours.

No, I would want exclusivity because focus is important and people (especially developers) cannot focus on multiple things at the same time, unless we're talking about things that the contractor is very specialized in, has done those things repeatedly and has a track record to show for it. For CRUD stuff for example, I wouldn't care. But for new, more difficult, more challenging problems that require focus and inspiration, then I would require exclusivity. On the types of problems that I currently work on, for example, I cannot focus on multiple things on the same day, or even the same week. Sometimes if I get distracted by conversations that are unrelated to what I'm working on, my whole day is fucked because then I have to remember the context I was in and I'm already tired and out of my zone and I can't get back anymore, ending up staring at the laptop with a stupid look on my face. I have days in which I notify everybody that I need to get work done and don't want to be interrupted, unless there's an emergency.

Sometimes I envy devops, or CRUD developers, or other types of freelancers that can rely on experience to place themselves on autopilot or that can deliver value in a short amount of time. For example devops get paid mostly for being on-call, which means they can get calls at 12 o'clock at night, but can also mean that they don't have much to do all day and thus can serve multiple clients at the same time.

And note that I'm not comparing the difficulty of the job here, but about the types of gigs on which you can rely on experience or on short amounts of focus to deliver value. Or who knows, maybe I don't have enough experience and some day I'll be able to place myself on autopilot.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by jarrett on Sunday March 23, 2014 @01:54PM (#7454257)
> Being a developer

That's the big distinction. You're imagining yourself as the client, but I'm imagining the thought process of clients such as I've actually had. In my personal experience, clients are almost always never developers. And they do conflate hours worked with value delivered. I'm sure there are exceptions to that rule, but for what it's worth, I've never encountered one.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by goatforce5 on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @04:39PM (#7431702)
I left a job in the midst of Dotcom Boom 1.0. When I was trying to resign, my boss was like "Where are you going? How much are they paying? We'll match it! We'll better it!"

He found it hard to grasp that my plan was to do absolutely nothing. In fact, I told him my plan was to go watch TV for a while.

I was by no means rich but I had enough money to keep me going for a few months and this was during the Boom. It wouldn't take more than a couple of days to find a job when I was ready for one.

If you're living paycheck to paycheck and have big responsibilities (kids, a mortgage, etc) it can be inconceivable that you're willing/able to not play the game of trying to always acquire as much money as possible.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by sebslomski on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @03:17PM (#7431010)
I envy your work style, but I'm constantly afraid I would then be poor when I'm old. What's your retirement plan? Do you even have one yet? Don't take me wrong, I'm in my mid 20s and I live in a country with offers you an ok retirement.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by ritchiea on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @03:40PM (#7431234)
Well, to be frank, I am putting off thinking seriously about retirement. I feel like I can accomplish some substantial creative work and that the time to try to do that is now while I'm young. I guess you could say I'm hedging multiple interests, with the expectation that if none of my experiments takes off I'll have to try out something different and more full time in the future. Just to be clear, the idea isn't to not work. In many cases I'm actually working far more than 40 hours a week, but I'm only doing 25 hours of work for some person or organization that is paying me. But I'm working on stuff I personally care about.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by josefresco on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @03:52PM (#7431336)
Some of us work for today ... but many of us work for tomorrow. Let's hope your side projects prove fruitful.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by psyklic on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @04:17PM (#7431547)
Even at working 25 hours a week, a freelancer can make a good income.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by ritchiea on Thursday March 20, 2014 @10:11AM (#7435592)
That's true. I am doing far better than just scraping by but I also don't have much in terms of savings. One challenge is that I live in Brooklyn, which has a high cost of living.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by jmaschad on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @04:21PM (#7431575)
I used to think like that a lot but more and more I wonder if it is really a good idea to go through life in a way so you have it nice when you retire.
Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by scarecrowbob on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @05:13PM (#7431908)
I currently am doing something very similar, and I feel pretty strongly that I could literally do this until I die, just like I plan to do my music gigs until I die.

Literally, I am billing < 20 hours a week, and unless I become disabled and/or get dementia/Alzheimers, I feel that I will like doing what I am doing in some form or other forever.

I've done a lot of different things in my life, and this _is_ having it nice. It's far nicer than the "retirements" of many of my friends in their 70s, though I will grant it is not as plush or completely free of pressure as my parents' retirements as school teachers/administrators.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by lucaspiller on Thursday March 20, 2014 @12:06AM (#7433795)
Yeah I'm doing something similar. The hours I work varies, this week I'm waiting for a client to get back to me about some stuff so it'll be < 20 hours, but I never work more than 40. As you say I could probably do this until I die. I don't have a family yet though, I'm sure things will be different then.

I'm also travelling in SE Asia so my outgoings are very low. I didn't realise how cheap it was here. I'm bringing in nearly 5x (before tax) of what I'm spending.

Re:What if you didn't need money or attention? by hindsightbias on Wednesday March 19, 2014 @04:03PM (#7431425)
Good luck. My goal is to retire to a 20 hour or 3 day work week some day. Need to think of some passive-aggressive domain name to get that thought across. Maybe retiredguru.com or something.