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Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by rayiner on Thursday February 27, 2014 @04:11PM (#7315089)
This is not a "no way in hell" issue. The issue of whether Congress should have the power to issue paper money or make them legal tender was debated at the Constitutional convention and left unresolved: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_Tender_Cases#Original_int.... An explicit part of the concern at the Constitutional convention was about not wanting to bind the hands of a future Congress with regards to paper money. Supreme Court cases in the 19th century determined that the power to make notes legal tender was incident to Congress's power to borrow money on the credit of the United States and to "coin Money" and to "regulate the Value thereof."

To be fair, this is actually one of the more plausible ones of the various "everything is unconstitutional" myths. At least some of the framers clearly did want to tie the hands of the federal government when it came to making paper money legal tender.

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by logfromblammo on Thursday February 27, 2014 @04:43PM (#7315324)
I find the arguments of Alexander Hamilton and his central bank supporters to be self-serving and destructive to the ends of the people. And in my biased and prejudiced opinion, central banking in the US has been an unmitigated disaster every time it has been tried. I don't believe JM Keynes can be used as a foundation for a sound economy, and I don't think monetary inflation is good for anybody except the person doing the inflating.

There is good reason for the Constitution to override the status quo of the Articles of Confederation on the subject of minting coinage, but I'm not certain a debate left unresolved regarding paper money is indicative of anything when they did actually agree that a person could be owned, and that was worth 3/5 of a vote. It was either less important than slavery, or more difficult to resolve. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

Before descending into full-on libertarded ranting, let's just say that leaving the matter as ambiguous effectively grants the government license to do whatever it pleases and interpret the ambiguity in favor of that.

Failing to bind the hands of a future Congress is what allowed them to pick up that grenade and pull the pin.

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by rayiner on Thursday February 27, 2014 @04:58PM (#7315446)
I'm not really interested in getting pulled into a 200 year old debate. For better or worse, most of the latent ambiguities in the Constitution were resolved in favor of the interpretation espoused by Hamilton and the Federalists. All I'm saying is that it's not the case that there was this clear Constitutional dictate in one direction that we callously ignored in modern times.
Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by logfromblammo on Thursday February 27, 2014 @05:34PM (#7315725)
I'm saying that even if it was clear, it probably would have been ignored (maybe even amended) anyway. Control over the nation's currency is so powerful that it is inevitable that someone will try to usurp it.

If you're trying to create a limited government, there are ample reasons to dig a deep moat around money, fill it with poisonous snakes and spiders, and line the walls with Dementors.

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by argumentum on Thursday February 27, 2014 @05:28PM (#7315687)
> I'm not really interested in getting pulled into a 200 year old debate.

Why not, if the debate is still valid? These issues weren't so much "resolved" as put aside in favor of more government power or postponed (in the case of slavery, equal protection). The mere fact that the debate is 200 years old is simply more credit to its importance.

The constitution is imperfect (like our government), as it itself acknowledges, and is "correct" only as Lincoln said that it serves a nation "conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all (men) are created equal".

As someone else once said, don't take refuge in the false security of consensus.

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by gnaritas on Thursday February 27, 2014 @06:46PM (#7316191)
> The mere fact that the debate is 200 years old is simply more credit to its importance.

No, it usually means one side lost and can't get over it. Half the country still disagrees with Darwin, it doesn't make the debate important despite it being well over 100 years old. The same applies here.

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by argumentum on Thursday February 27, 2014 @07:10PM (#7316338)
> Half the country still disagrees with Darwin

If you don't think that debate is still important, you are essentially conceding it to the half the country you disagree with (because they sure as hell think its important). I'm sure you don't want your kids being taught creationism just because you consider yourself "above" the argument.

And regardless, the same does not apply here, because unlike the overwhelming evidence we have for evolution by natural selection, there simply is not enough data on the usefulness of central banking to the prosperity of the nation.

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by gnaritas on Thursday February 27, 2014 @08:13PM (#7316597)
> If you don't think that debate is still important, you are essentially conceding it to the half the country you disagree with

No I'm not. The debate was over 100 years ago, the ignorant just haven't figured it out yet. They simply get laughed at now for trying to argue the case. Mockery is not concession.

> there simply is not enough data on the usefulness of central banking to the prosperity of the nation.

Not what I was referring to. I was referring to this, " For better or worse, most of the latent ambiguities in the Constitution were resolved in favor of the interpretation espoused by Hamilton and the Federalists."

You can't ignore 200 years of judicial interpretation and case law simply because you prefer to interpret the text differently, that was his point and he's correct. That debate is over.

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by argumentum on Thursday February 27, 2014 @10:38PM (#7317108)
> Mockery is not concession.

If half the population becomes slightly over than half the population out of random chance (or say, the "ignorant" having a few more babies as they are wont to do), mockery would be political concession.

It's far better to convince who you deem ignorant of your own views. This means treating their arguments seriously in the fashion of http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html .

Mockery is unlikely to succeed (as are downvotes), and pretty much fails pg's 1st test.

Your next claim, that "200 years of judicial interpretation and case law" ends the debate fails pg's second test. It's an ad hominem attack, that any disagreement with legal precedent (admittedly strong in this case) should be ignored.

By the same token, legal precedent prior to the civil war dictated that human beings could be property. I presume you are glad that some individuals within that society begged to differ.

Debates should be conducted on first principles and supported by objective evidence. I myself agree with Rayiner in that there is no constitutional dictate either way, only saying that the debate is valid on the grounds of 1st principle regardless of how old the arguments are.

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by gnaritas on Friday February 28, 2014 @07:52AM (#7318429)
Keep your idol worship to yourself; pg is not the authority on how disagreement should work, he's a VC for tech companies, not the authoritative source on how things should be. I happen to agree with the Hitchens approach of mocking religious ignorance and don't give a crap about being reasonable about it. I don't care about pg's tests. Debate is not relevant and only lends status to non-sense. Mockery is the appropriate response to evolution deniers, not reasoned debate. You cannot reason someone out a position they were not reasoned into.
Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by argumentum on Friday February 28, 2014 @02:55PM (#7321047)
I don't think you have a clue about Christopher Hitchens (who I actually quoted in this thread: "don't take refuge in the false security of consensus").

Perhaps you should read more of what he wrote, and watch the dozens of debates he conducted with priests, rabbis etc. Of course, you can use ridicule in an argument, but you cannot put yourself above the debate (or you will lose).

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by gnaritas on Friday February 28, 2014 @04:42PM (#7321699)
Perhaps it's you who don't have a clue. Perhaps you should read more of what he wrote, and watch the dozens of debates he conducted with priests, rabbis etc, because I already have. Listen to the man himself[1] on the importance of mocking religion.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3sFg8-1qTw

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by dllthomas on Thursday February 27, 2014 @08:59PM (#7316772)
"No I'm not. The debate was over 100 years ago, the ignorant just haven't figured it out yet. They simply get laughed at now for trying to argue the case. Mockery is not concession."

If it's actually half the country, and they actually think it's substantially more important than the other half the country, there's an argument that it's effective concession. But, at the risk of putting words in your mouth, I more understood you to be saying that having the argument wasn't important - conveying the understanding behind your "your side" of that argument you might consider quite a bit more important.

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by logfromblammo on Friday February 28, 2014 @12:06PM (#7319988)
There never was a debate. Having a debate presumes that it is possible for one side to concede. The public discussion between Bill Nye and Religiousguy Whatsisface showed that one side is not debating; they're just baiting. Bill Nye said all it would take to change his mind is just one piece of real evidence. The other guy said that nothing anyone could ever say or do would change his mind.

On hearing that, it becomes obvious. There is no quest for truth or spirit of inquiry in the opposition. They are simply obstacles to progress that must be routed around. The debate is not over; it never took place, and it never will.

If you can't get someone to support rational argumentation by means of rational arguments, you're better off talking to someone--anyone--else.

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by dllthomas on Friday February 28, 2014 @02:31PM (#7320916)
There are some people who claim to be beyond convincing. There are probably some people who are beyond convincing - and there's probably some overlap between those two groups. It's just not the case that either of these sets includes everyone who doesn't "believe in" evolution.
Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by gnaritas on Friday February 28, 2014 @04:59PM (#7321812)
You can't have a reasoned debate about evolution; reasonable people already know it's a fact and don't dispute it. Only unreasonable people are still disputing a basic fact of the world discovered well over 100 years ago.
Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by dllthomas on Friday February 28, 2014 @07:36PM (#7322498)
You're presuming a lot about people's exposure to various ideas. A reasonable person surrounded by unreasonable people, who has - of course - encountered talk of evolution but almost exclusively absurd caricatures isn't going to "already know it's a fact".
Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by gnaritas on Sunday March 02, 2014 @11:53AM (#7329726)
If they graduated high school, they were exposed to the facts regardless of who they're around. Anyone who doesn't know evolution is reality is not a person of reason.
Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by dllthomas on Tuesday March 04, 2014 @09:00AM (#7340160)
"If they graduated high school, they were exposed to the facts regardless of who they're around."

Unfortunately that's basically false.

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by dllthomas on Thursday February 27, 2014 @08:51PM (#7316743)
"I don't think monetary inflation is good for anybody except the person doing the inflating."

Isn't it good for persons with dollar-denominated debt exceeding their dollar-denominated assets?

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by icebraining on Friday February 28, 2014 @02:30AM (#7317589)
Only if their dollar-denominated debt wasn't adjusted to account for inflation, which assuming stable rates of inflation, isn't likely.
Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by dllthomas on Friday February 28, 2014 @08:26AM (#7318557)
Agreed, though I have a hard time seeing it as particularly bad for anyone in that case either.
Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by logfromblammo on Friday February 28, 2014 @11:43AM (#7319829)
It complicates all economic calculations by unnecessarily introducing time and rate variables into the equation, and puts the entire economy on a treadmill, so people have to work just to stay in one place. Since those variables are often only rough guesses, they can be wrong, and cause misallocation of funds.

When you print an additional 2% of the money supply, you are essentially taking about 2% of the entire economy and assigning it to yourself.

Back when money was gold, and gold was money, in order to increase the money supply by 2%, you had to mine 2% of all gold already in the marketplace, which required a lot of labor and capital. If the price of gold was high, you worked more expensive mines. If it was low, you idled them as temporarily unprofitable. The effect of the increase on the money supply was diffused throughout the economy by virtue of the sheer amount of work required to accomplish it.

With paper money, all that is required is a press and anti-counterfeiting measures. The transfer of value into the new money is far more concentrated, both in terms of actors and time. The buying power of the new money is higher, because people don't necessarily know how much you printed until you start spending it.

It is a great virtue for Bitcoin to make public the exact amount of new money added to the economy. Monetary inflation can therefore be predicted exactly. It's still inflationary, and does not account for changes in demand to achieve a stable money price. What it needs is a feedback loop that connects mining rewards with demand for the currency. I imagine that could key from the hash rate of the whole network, but I'm not certain how.

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by dragonwriter on Friday February 28, 2014 @12:32PM (#7320164)
> When you print an additional 2% of the money supply, you are essentially taking about 2% of the entire economy and assigning it to yourself.

There is no basis for the assumptions about demand for money vs. other goods that are necessary for this to be a justifiable claim.

Re:Yellen on Bitcoin: Fed Doesn’t Have Authority to Regulate... by logfromblammo on Sunday March 02, 2014 @08:46PM (#7331609)
Assumption: The value of money is the aggregate value of market transactions divided by the product of the available quantity of money and its velocity.

Assumption: The money itself has zero intrinsic value. It is only worth what you can trade for it. Thanks to the previous assumption, that is a fraction of all goods and services on the market.

When you change the size of the money supply from 100 to 102, the 2 new notes increase in value from 0 to 1/102 of everything on the market, and all of the 100 old notes decrease from 1/100 to 1/102 of everything. The guy that prints the new notes gets 2/102 of everything for free. That value is not created; it is taken. Everyone who held any old note has their buying power reduced by 1.96%.

Is it justifiable? Yes. Is it a gross simplification because economics is a dismal, dismal science? Also yes.