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Re:German tank problem by schoen on Friday February 21, 2014 @02:00PM (#7278685)
Huh, I once visited a military base where people on the trip wanted to be photographed with a tank. The soldiers said it was OK, as long as somebody obscured the tank's serial number by standing in front of it. I wonder if their training in this respect was inspired by this history!

(But if so, why not print the serial numbers inside the tank, not outside? Or maybe encrypt or HMAC them?)

Re:German tank problem by Spooky23 on Friday February 21, 2014 @02:14PM (#7278787)
I had a similar experience and asked.

The answer was that when things like tanks get moved, it's by rail or ship. When figuring out what goes where, having to climb up on a railcar to figure out whose tank it was gets old.

Re:German tank problem by Malician on Friday February 21, 2014 @03:46PM (#7279304)
The wiki article mentions estimations being done from parts from broken tanks, in which case internal numbers wouldn't necessarily help.
Re:German tank problem by vonmoltke on Friday February 21, 2014 @02:20PM (#7278824)
The Soviets used to semi-randomly change ship pennant numbers and other identifying marks on their equipment to throw off NATO efforts to develop accurate strength estimates, orders of battle, and movement pictures.
Re:German tank problem by azernik on Saturday February 22, 2014 @01:37AM (#7281187)
As a less intentional version of this - at early stages of the 1973 war, Israeli forces in certain areas tended to consist of whatever scraps of forces arrived at the front first. This led Egyptian and Syrian intelligence to wildly overestimate Israeli force sizes, since they would sometimes see the identifying marks of multiple brigades when facing a very small force.
Re:German tank problem by bdunbar on Friday February 21, 2014 @02:59PM (#7279060)
> why not print the serial numbers inside the tank

I think by serial number you mean the unit number and markings stenciled on the tank?

Something like 'C Co/5th Bn/377th Rgt'

Because friendly soldiers need to eyeball that information at a glance. Climbing up and peering inside each and every vehicle is a time-waster.

Re:German tank problem by michaelt on Friday February 21, 2014 @06:04PM (#7280053)
Finally, an application for Google Glass: Tank identification. Paint on a camouflage QR code and we're ready to go.
Re:German tank problem by jrockway on Friday February 21, 2014 @06:17PM (#7280114)
FWIW, I believe the military already deploys mobile computers with HUDs like this.
Re:German tank problem by jmaygarden on Friday February 21, 2014 @07:33PM (#7280418)
Such a (GPS-based) system I've worked with in the past is called Blue Force Tracking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Force_Tracking

Re:German tank problem by Someone on Saturday February 22, 2014 @08:33AM (#7282009)
I don't know whether they use HUDs, and whether they work with tanks, but the common name for that is a "friend or foe" system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_friend_or_foe)
Re:German tank problem by cookingrobot on Saturday February 22, 2014 @12:00AM (#7281039)
I'd guess that they didn't know if they were allowed to do that, and figured if there was no serial number then they couldn't get in trouble.
Re:German tank problem by Robin_Message on Friday February 21, 2014 @02:10PM (#7278755)
So, I HMAC the serial numbers of the tank. Now you have a series of very large numbers, evenly distributed.

Someone else can do the proof, but I'm pretty sure the total number of tanks is inversely proportional to the smallest difference between two observed HMACs (or between the highest observed HMAC and the highest possible HMAC).

EDIT: Actually, scratch that. That only works if you see all the tanks...

Re:German tank problem by herge on Friday February 21, 2014 @03:23PM (#7279171)
If the serial numbers are randomly distributed in some finite span, and you have the serial number of three tanks, say:

    a: 000001
    b: 000101
    c: 100000
What is the probability that c is not the highest serial number and that there are 1000 total tanks.

How many tank serial numbers would we need before those probabilities get > 90%, > 95%?

Re:German tank problem by patmcguire on Friday February 21, 2014 @02:22PM (#7278841)
Apparently encryption is weak because the plaintext has a very simmple pattern (increasing numbers).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem#Countermeas... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Known-plaintext_attack

I can't understand HMAC enough to know whether it solves it, but there seems to be a trade-off between keeping it secure and introducing randomness and making people do lookups on the other end (which would have been super slow then, and I don't know how feasable hash tables are when dealing with punchcards)

Re:German tank problem by sqrt2 on Friday February 21, 2014 @05:12PM (#7279812)
A MAC of a message m can only be computed with the knowledge of a key K. Specifically, with a cryptographic hash function h,

  HMAC(K, m) = h(K + a || h(K + b || m)),
where + is addition mod 2 (xor), || is concatenation and a and b are constants. (This construction takes into account possible length extension attacks on h.)

Given that h is secure, knowledge of any reasonable number of pairs (m, HMAC(K, m)) does not allow you to recover K, and without K, you cannot compute HMAC(K, m) for known m, i.e. enumerate all the possible MACs for serial numbers.

Re:German tank problem by lvh on Friday February 21, 2014 @03:47PM (#7279313)
Why is encryption weak due to the simple pattern of increasing numbers? Encrypting increasing numbers is how CTR and GCM mode work; those are arguably some of the best modes of operation we have commonly available.