News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Ask HN: Software Engineer Salaries in Berlin by rdl on Thursday January 23, 2014 @10:53AM (#7108876)
What I'm more interested in are costs of employing people in Berlin, vs. costs in the Bay Area and other markets.

e.g. if salary expectations for a mid-level dev are EUR 50000 vs. USD 120k, but Germany costs another EUR 50000 in taxes/permits overhead vs. another USD 30000 to the employer in the US, it's a wash.

Re:Ask HN: Software Engineer Salaries in Berlin by netrus on Thursday January 23, 2014 @10:57AM (#7108913)
On the other hand, overhead in nothing close to 100% - more like 20%. (On top of the gross salary - The dev will only get about 55% of his salary after tax, insurance etc.). No mid-level dev expects 50k EUR after taxes.
Re:Ask HN: Software Engineer Salaries in Berlin by junto on Thursday January 23, 2014 @10:59AM (#7108931)
This is a valid point. As an employer in Germany you have a large number of overheads on top of the employee's salary, including social contributions, health insurance, pension, etc. These are expensive in Germany.
Re:Ask HN: Software Engineer Salaries in Berlin by a8da6b0c91d on Thursday January 23, 2014 @10:58AM (#7108922)
Probably the bigger concern is it will cost a fortune to fire or lay people off in Germany. Or if an employee gets pregnant they can disappear for something like five months at full salary, and you can't replace them. Hiring people in most of Europe is a daunting proposition.
Re:Ask HN: Software Engineer Salaries in Berlin by junto on Thursday January 23, 2014 @11:21AM (#7109083)
New-parent-time or "Elternzeit" can be up to 12 months. I believe that the state pays the "Elterngeld", not the employer.

The fact remains that you lose an employee for up to 12 months, and you have to take them back into their previous position afterwards.

Compounding the problem for the employer, is the fact that fathers are also entitled to the same amount of time. Both parents can share 14 months Elternzeit, so both parents cannot take 12 months off each, but they can take 7 months each either together or consecutively.

So the father could technically take 12 months off. Therefore, avoiding hiring women is not a valid strategy (and it shouldn't be either).

Re:Ask HN: Software Engineer Salaries in Berlin by levosmetalo on Thursday January 23, 2014 @11:18AM (#7109071)
Another point is that you can't make people work 60 hours a week easily like in the USA. That could even make you a serious trouble with the law.

If you want to avoid these situations, then just hire contractors, but that will cost you more. If not, just stay in the USA. Europe doesn't need employers that treat employees as slaves. Employment in Germany is more like a long term two way relation, and regulations are made with that assumption in place.

Re:Ask HN: Software Engineer Salaries in Berlin by Ancorehraq on Thursday January 23, 2014 @11:53AM (#7109298)
So, a long term /three/ way relationship, then? The employee, the employer, and the state.
Re:Ask HN: Software Engineer Salaries in Berlin by levosmetalo on Thursday January 23, 2014 @11:56AM (#7109320)
Well, Germans people have always been more liberal and open minded regarding relationships, so threesomes are not that rare :)
Re:Ask HN: Software Engineer Salaries in Berlin by johnward on Thursday January 23, 2014 @11:11AM (#7109011)
Yeah, having to pay people for time off due to having a baby sounds terrible. /s
Re:Ask HN: Software Engineer Salaries in Berlin by danmaz74 on Thursday January 23, 2014 @11:39AM (#7109203)
Even more terrible when you don't even have to pay them - they're paid by the State.
Re:Ask HN: Software Engineer Salaries in Berlin by levosmetalo on Thursday January 23, 2014 @11:47AM (#7109262)
Those communist bastards, how dare they? /s
Re:Ask HN: Software Engineer Salaries in Berlin by danielh on Thursday January 23, 2014 @11:25AM (#7109107)
AFAIK, an employer gets fully reimbursed by the health insurance for the paid maternity leave.
Re:Ask HN: Software Engineer Salaries in Berlin by rdl on Thursday January 23, 2014 @01:16PM (#7109936)
Yeah, what I want is a single sheet overview of hiring/retaining/firing across multiple locations.

In Germany it seems easy enough to get to 5-10 people with essentially founders and contractors, or expats, or corp to corp. I wonder if something like a PEO could exist which has the long-term employment relationship with the employees, who can move between startups -- it wouldn't be a "staffing agency" or body shop which just provides a bunch of morons for a low price as needed, but a way for employees to be essentially consultants and either promote themselves to companies, or be recruited by companies, without friction.