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Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by 3am on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @04:33PM (#7098576)
This is about about as far as I can remember society being away from 1984. The NSA bulk surveillance is bad (doubleplus bad?), but remember the most pernicious influence in the actual book wasn't the surveillance, but the criminalization of actual ideas and corrupting the language in order to accomplish that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).. in particular whiteblack (not to minimize your own nom de plume).
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by grey-area on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @05:09PM (#7098895)
Some examples of Orwellian terms in common use:

Enemy combatants, Collateral damage, Leader of the free world, National security, War for peace, Premptive strikes, Enhanced interrogation

Some Orwellian concepts: War on abstract nouns (e.g on terror), Pervasive surveillance, Pervasive propaganda, Casual use of torture, Widespread hysteria and hatred over minor threats, Former hated enemies now allies and vice versa, Stark divides between the haves and have nots, A distant and poorly understood enemy necessitates perpetual conflict and sacrifice

It's a really interesting book and I disagree that we are any farther on in these respects than we were in orwell's time. His book is of course a fantasy intended to illustrate our failings by exaggerating them, not a strict prediction of the future, but it still has a lot to teach us.

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by MartinCron on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @06:29PM (#7099440)
It has been a long time since I last read 1984, but I don't see the war on abstract nouns (poverty, drugs, terror) as particularly Orwellian.
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by grey-area on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @01:18AM (#7101117)
I was thinking of things like sexcrime or thoughtcrime, though I don't think it is called a war in 1984. In a broader sense though, this sort of War on x is very Orwellian I think because it's directing the public to scapegoat segments of the population (drug users, muslims as potential terrorists) and blame them for their ills, and see themselves as perpetually at war with members of their own society, in the same way that in 1984 those guilty of vague, abstract crimes became the enemy and worthy of hate, simply by virtue of a government pronouncement.

War has become normalised and part of everyday life, with the implication that as we are at war special rules apply and the enemy, as designated by the government, deserves no mercy because we are engaged in an existential struggle.

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by bernardom on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @05:27PM (#7099029)
> The NSA bulk surveillance is bad (doubleplus bad?)

Doubleplus ungood, actually.

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by dil8 on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @04:44PM (#7098684)
You just have to listen to a politician speak for a few minutes to see how language has been corrupted...
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by sliverstorm on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @04:49PM (#7098730)
How has language been corrupted? They say exactly what they mean. They might lead you to believe they are saying something different, but is that language's fault, or is that because they are silver tongues?
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by dil8 on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @05:10PM (#7098906)
Interesting essay on this from the man himself. https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by bananacurve on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @05:27PM (#7099037)
Thank you, I especially liked this little bit:

> A mass of Latin words falls upon the facts like soft snow, blurring the outline and covering up all the details. The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish spurting out ink. In our age there is no such thing as "keeping out of politics." All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia.

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by dllthomas on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @07:14PM (#7099656)
For a counterpoint by people who actually study language: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=992
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by sliverstorm on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @05:42PM (#7099133)
I am familiar with everything he talks about, and have personally noted most of what he describes in political writing in the past. I guess I just don't think of it as a corruption of language; it's just kind of a given to me, that people speak in riddles and flowery phrases when they look to hide another meaning. I don't really see how English has changed as a result of it.
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by PythonicAlpha on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @05:07PM (#7098879)
No, they change the meaning of language. Language is never living on an island. It lives with the users and the uses of it. By misusing the language, bending and caricaturing it, they corrupt it.

Do you not realize it?

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by sliverstorm on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @05:49PM (#7099176)
That's an artful phrasing, but an implication that your point 'is obvious' as the cornerstone of your argument is unconvincing.

I postulate that artful, metaphorical, or misleading uses of language is both neither misuse nor bending it, and I would like a clearer explanation of what a corrupted language looks like, aside from "being corrupt".

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by PythonicAlpha on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @06:27PM (#7099428)
I give you one example: Because torture is forbidden, the US government just renamed the things they did to the prisoners in Iraq and Guantanamo, just not naming it torture. Or because if the people in Guantanamo where soldiers they would have special rights and the other way around, if they where not, they should get a normal trial. So they just called them other names just to disguise that what they do is not right!

That is corrupting the language.

And I even see it in Germany. Because the basic rights (like free speech) are defined in our constitution and "security" is not among them, our former secretary of the interior said this would be a "super basic right" -- thus also putting security above all basic rights ... and giving our rights in the hands of the NSA.

By this way, they corrupt our language and our thinking. Defining everything that way, how they pleasure and how they can betray us!

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by sliverstorm on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @06:58PM (#7099572)
To my eyes, that's a sign of a weak rule of law, not anything to do with language.
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by grey-area on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @01:27AM (#7101137)
To call torture 'enhanced interrogation' avoids the use of the word torture because it has negative connotations, and tries to normalise torture by association with an accepted practice (interrogation), after all interrogation is what you do to prisoners isn't it?

It's a clear distortion of language to hide the truth; it has everything to do with language and the use of it, as it deliberately twists meaning in order to limit the thoughts of people who accept this term to describe certain actions. As Wittgenstein put it:

The limits of my language mean the limits of my world

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by PythonicAlpha on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @07:47AM (#7102248)
Very good point here. Wittgenstein is right: By limiting (or bending) the language, also bending the thinking is done. I also see it in my own country, how language is used to bend the (acceptable) thinking in the society and to brainwash people.
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by PythonicAlpha on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @07:31PM (#7099745)
It is just a question of viewpoint. What they do is, they try to change thinking and confuse what is acceptable in the society. Language aside, it is a sign of a weak society in my opinion, because they are allowed to goon with this.
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by PythonicAlpha on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @04:38PM (#7098626)
Don't you think, that we already have criminalization of thoughts and corruption of language?

No?

Then think again. Doubleplus think.

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by MartinCron on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @04:45PM (#7098693)
I'm trying to doubleplusthink on this one, but I really can't see any evidence of criminalization of thoughts. I have some pretty deplorable thoughts myself, and I seem to be getting away with it.
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by mhurron on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @05:28PM (#7099043)
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/01/07/20-years-for-loli-m...

"A federal appeals panel has upheld the 20 year sentence of a lolicon found to have received illustrations of underage sex by email, saying that “it is not a required that the minor depicted actually exists”, and so ruling art not to be universally protected free speech."

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by MartinCron on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @06:27PM (#7099425)
I was wondering if someone would bring that up. The prohibition of virtual child pornography is probably the closest thing to thought crime that we have.

I think that using a particularly narrow example of restricted permissible expression isn't proof that society is getting closer to the totalitarian nightmare of 1984.

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by mhurron on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @08:18PM (#7099987)
Art, in part, put a guy in jail for 20 years, that is double the average of the crime of actual rape. I think that's going in a direction that we shouldn't go.
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by MartinCron on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @10:11AM (#7102936)
I agree that it's a direction we shouldn't go, but I don't see it as a new thing or a thing that's getting progressively worse.
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by PythonicAlpha on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @04:56PM (#7098800)
You should just watch with an open mind what is going on in the world. There might be no mass-thought-reader yet, so you get through with your deplorable thoughts, but just take as a small example the era of McCarthy -- those that openly expressed possible communistic thoughts where persecuted.

Or (to name a more current example) just say at the NY airport that the security measures are bullshit! ... just as doublethought-enhancer.

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by MartinCron on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @06:33PM (#7099462)
The McCarthy era was both a long time ago and is almost universally regarded as a political and ideological failure. Are you saying that our society is infested with crypto-McCarthyists?
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by PythonicAlpha on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @08:19AM (#7102381)
I don't answer to posts that are not earnest. (I could answer to the first sentence alone, but it does not make sense to me to answer in the context of the second)
Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by Jare on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @05:01PM (#7098845)
> I have some pretty deplorable thoughts myself, and I seem to be getting away with it

Only because you don't have 24/7 surveillance on you. Yet.

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by gumby on Tuesday January 21, 2014 @09:27PM (#7100318)
conviction for conspiracy to commit when no actually commission happened is an example (consider the FBI convicting someone of a terrorist plot when all other participants are FBI agents).

Or, frankly, when a punishment for a crime is increased by its intent (e.g. race related or anti-homosexual) -- it's not only the crime that is punished but the thought behind it as well.

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by MartinCron on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @10:22AM (#7103016)
Those FBI stings are a pretty good example, though I would say that it's more textbook entrapment than thoughtcrime. It seems that they are selecting more for the ability to be manipulated over their ideological positions.

As far as hate-crime goes, the notion behind increased punishment there is that the victims include an entire terrorized community, not just the direct victim. If I throw some trash on some guy's lawn, there's one victim (the guy). If I burn a cross on some guy's lawn, there are multiple victims (the other black families in the neighborhood). It's an important distinction.

Re:1984: The masterpiece that killed George Orwell by gumby on Wednesday January 22, 2014 @10:36PM (#7106879)
Read up on the FBI "terrorism" plots most of them are beyond traditional entrapment and into enticement.

For hate crime: yes, you've explained the justification for the designation. But it is thoughtcrime. You've merely said that it's legitimate.